(April 22, 2018 at 9:25 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Well, remove god entirely from it.  If the future -can be known-...but isn't known by anyone.  Can you do anything other than whatever it is you -will do-?

Yes, always.

(April 22, 2018 at 9:28 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Simple, huh?  Get to work.

Shh... You not suppose to let people know you hired me!

(April 22, 2018 at 9:28 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: I simply don't see the connection with a being knowing something with there being no free will.  It doesn't compute for me.  The logic you're employing simply seems faulty.

Well, in what way?  Let's try to nail down why it seems faulty.  As I described above, there;s no requirement of an entity that actually does know the future, only that the future can be known.


You find yourself in a situation where you have to choose a shirt.  You have shirt A, you have shirt B.  You're going to choose shirt b, this is a knowable future state.  Can you choose shirt a?  No, you are going to choose shirt b.  I guess you made a choice, but what freedom did you exert in an event with a previously knowable outcome?

(April 22, 2018 at 9:20 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(April 22, 2018 at 9:17 pm)Hammy Wrote:

Please keep quoting Khem so I can watch but keep him on block lol.

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Meaning you couldn't have done otherwise, because that would have meant he was wrong, and he can't be because he knows what you will do. Not much of a choice is it if you can only 'choose' between one option with no alternatives?

The logic doesn't follow.  You're merely being obtuse.

Actually, you don't seem to know what it means to know the future with absolute certainty.

(April 22, 2018 at 9:32 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(April 22, 2018 at 9:28 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: I simply don't see the connection with a being knowing something with there being no free will.  It doesn't compute for me.  The logic you're employing simply seems faulty.

Well, in what way?  Let's try to nail down why it seems faulty.  As I described above, there;s no requirement of an entity that actually does know the future, only that the future can be known.


You find yourself in a situation where you have to choose a shirt.  You have shirt A, you have shirt B.  You're going to choose shirt b, this is a knowable future state.  Can you choose shirt a?  No, you are going to choose shirt b.  I guess you made a choice, but what freedom did you exert in an event with a previously knowable outcome?

Why would the outcome be previously knowable?

(April 22, 2018 at 9:32 pm)Khemikal Wrote: You find yourself in a situation where you have to choose a shirt.  You have shirt A, you have shirt B.  You're going to choose shirt b, this is a knowable future state.  Can you choose shirt a?  No, you are going to choose shirt b.  I guess you made a choice, but what freedom did you exert in an event with a previously knowable outcome?

Of course I can choose shirt A. Someone "knowing" the future does not mean the future is set in stone. I've already stated this. The future can always be changed despite one's knowledge of it.

(April 22, 2018 at 9:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Choice implies possibility in real time, one can do this or that or that. But with future already existing or written or known, there is no possibility then one outcome.

This is completely correct! That's what I mean by how in determinism there is exactly one physically possible future, meaning nothing else can be done.

If God knows the future with absolute certainty, then he knows what will happen, whether it's determined or not. Even if there are many 'possible' futures, he knows which one will happen, and which one you will do. He knows that you won't be capable of doing anything else.

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(April 22, 2018 at 9:24 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: I don't see it.

Right you don't lol.

I think I get what Lut is saying. The concept that you chose what you wanted to, but it's also what's predicted. The god or whatever may know what you would do, but it didn't make you do anything. But maybe Khem and Hammy are seeing this purely through what the possible outcomes are.

(April 22, 2018 at 9:05 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(April 22, 2018 at 9:02 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: I completely believe in free will.

I do have the free will to choose whether I will wear the green shirt or the blue shirt.

In exactly the same circumstances when the universe is in exactly the same state?

How would this question be answered? There is no way to know for certain. Unless you get identical universes. Wait, even then it will still be inconclusive because if in both universes the same shirt was taken it would still only be up to a 50% chance.

lets Say 1000 identical universes and all choose the same shirt only then can we maybe claim there is no free will.

Actually having an identical universe in the first place proves there is no free will. Because how could it get to be identical if everyone in their respective universes were making their own choices. BUT this doesn't necessary prove there is no free will as there is no proof for an identical universe.

Then again I guess if there were infinite universes then even if there are identical universes, and, since the number is infinite, there is infinite amount of chances for the exact same decisions of free will to be made and lead up to the universe being identical.

None of this can be proven anyway. So going with the universe we have: free will exists because we are free to make our decisions.

(April 22, 2018 at 9:28 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: I simply don't see the connection with a being knowing something with there being no free will.  It doesn't compute for me.  The logic you're employing simply seems faulty.

What do you think it means to know with absolute certainty exactly what you will do? Don't you see that if you were to do anything else it would mean the being didn't know it?