It's a pointless wankfest.

As I said the original idea was more of an agenda item at a committee meeting than anything conducive to a discussion. And limiting it to christians only (especially the type we get here, of which cl is far more typical than some people believe*) only turns it into an echo chamber of "atheists are mean, why don't they believe what we tell them?"

*Edit: it's my experience that christians (and other religionists) on places like here and religious fora online are very atypical to the vast majority of religious people in real life. They tend towards fundamentalism a lot more easily and readily than most. In real life I had no problem spending two years working with a group of nuns, I wouldn't last five minutes in the same room with any of the religious posters on this site.

Have been busy preparing for an event today. Looking forward to catching up here though I don't really expect anything earthshaking to come of their theist caucus. I think it was LL who mentioned the value of seeing theists as people who realize they have their own foibles and not part of a sinister plot to deceive children has some value . I'm mildly interested so far, but the value to them will be whatever they make of it.

Where do we stick Rik in this discussion?

On the outside!

Rik's one of us.
He's done more for atheism's cause than anyone else could...

(May 5, 2018 at 8:07 am)Wololo Wrote: It's a pointless wankfest.

As I said the original idea was more of an agenda item at a committee meeting than anything conducive to a discussion. And limiting it to christians only (especially the type we get here, of which cl is far more typical than some people believe*) only turns it into an echo chamber of "atheists are mean, why don't they believe what we tell them?"

*Edit: it's my experience that christians (and other religionists) on places like here and religious fora online are very atypical to the vast majority of religious people in real life. They tend towards fundamentalism a lot more easily and readily than most. In real life I had no problem spending two years working with a group of nuns, I wouldn't last five minutes in the same room with any of the religious posters on this site.

I am genuinely curious to know, which of my Catholic beliefs do you think is "more fundamentalist" than those of a group of nuns?

At first I found it kind of funny that everyone was giving their introductions but each Christian was so different... so much so that I felt like they're just going to be talking past each other for the whole discussion.

Now I just feel like even the Christians on the thread who I like the least... I still feel like they're honest. And I guess it's going to make it a lot easier for me to be tolerant of people I consider nuts in future. Perhaps it has been an empathy failure on my part?

Honesty is the number one quality for me, so as absolutely reprehensible as I find some of theirs views, especially Drich... everyone does seem genuine.

But then... Neo hasn't turned up yet lol. And he always comes across as snide, condescending, pretentious and disingenuous to me... so we shall see.

Still. I feel like I like them all more now (those who have posted). Even Drich as utterly vile as he is (one of the most horrible people on the site, IMO).... he does seem genuine.

---

(May 5, 2018 at 3:49 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 5, 2018 at 3:39 am)robvalue Wrote: I'd guess the reason most Christians (I'm including all the drive-by types in this) come to atheist forums is because it's guaranteed to be full of targets.

I can't speak for the silent lurkers of course, but in all my time on such forums, I've never seen anyone even remotely swayed by any preaching anyone has brought. What I have seen instead, quite frequently, is people become more disgusted with the religions in question due to the way they get presented.

Thankfully there are a few theists here and there who actually want to engage with atheists and are genuinely interested in hearing what they have to say. To those, I say thank you very much.

I may hate the logic of theists, but we do have a handful of die hards here, like a TimeX, take a licking and keep on ticking.

I hate the logic of theists because it isn't logical.

I don't hate theists (or anyone) though... but I do struggle to show respect towards them because I don't respect many people in general... and people with repugnant or childish views I respect even less. Still, I can get along with anyone who doesn't annoy the crap out of me or take offense at my correcting them when they're flat out wrong. I do think this discussion has led to me feeling like I can tolerate theists more easily now. As my biggest quibble was that many of them always seemed so dishonest to me. But I really did just forget just how deep their ignorance runs... and that they really really can't help it. It slips my mind sometimes. And seeing them all make it very clear just how indoctrinated they all are into their own particular Christian views (all clearly differing by having slightly different versions of Christian beliefs drummed into them)... it makes it easier for me tolerate them. Makes me pity them more instead. I know they don't want my pity... but they're gonna get it anyway.

(May 5, 2018 at 9:47 am)ignoramus Wrote: Rik's one of us.
He's done more for atheism's cause than anyone else could...

I don't think he realizes it though. Lolz. 

As for what I think of the debate and the posts within? 

CL: Joined here three months after I did. She's been a wonderful friend, even when we engage in back and forth posts where I strongly disagree with her opinions. Her thread prompting the birth of the Christian-only debate is a prime example of how she accepts my thoughts without taking it very personally. I love her dearly and as far as my RL friends go - I consider her to be in my small circle of people I trust.

She knows where I stood on having a section just for theists, as did everyone. Still - neither of us resorted to name calling each other. I believe there's a good reason for that. It is because CL never says a harsh word about anyone on here, regardless of who it is. Opinions about faith and beliefs run the gamut on here and CL has dealt with her share of being bullied (for lack of a better word). There are times she's wanted to leave. I convinced her to stay. Truth be told, we need her here. She's a great presence on this site. We've both learned from each other, I think. 

Given her viewpoints and tolerance with certain subjects, I'm hesitant to regard her as Catholic anymore. I can't even regard her as Episcopalian because her some of her views are far too progressive for either religion. And there's nothing wrong with that. I feel that she has a better understanding of the world and the way it is, because she is open to listening to others' thoughts on hotly contested topics. She also stands her ground when she feels she needs to.  This is why I feel she's a good influence on the forum. She listens and then she gives her thoughts. All without being brutal or calling names or being insulting.  

GC: He's a mixed bag for me, tbh. On the one hand, he's been incredibly supportive of me and my journey of being a non-smoker (ten months now smoke free). On many of the off topic threads he contributes to, he comes across as an average guy and for the most part, only brings religion into threads in the religion sections of the forum. He too, is another decent contributor but on the other hand, I feel that perhaps debating with him would work better if the preaching was left out of his posts. That's just my opinion, of course, but we're being honest and that's how I feel. 

I didn't join AF to be preached to. If I wanted that, I would have gone to a religious forum.

Alpha Male: As harsh as some of it was, I appreciate the honesty in his post. I miss him in Mafia. Religion aside - he's a really good Mafia player and I for that, I wish he was around more. Both him and CL have never, to my knowledge, brought religion into the Mafia games. I appreciate that because 99% of that game is mentally messing with everyone else and it can get really emotionally intense at times. 

He said this: 

Quote:So, on reflection, why am I here?

My presence here is nothing more than a bad habit.

It's a shame you think this way. When someone gets to know you through Mafia, you're not the same person that I see posting elsewhere on the forums. 

Quote:Prov. 26-11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.

Unless I see a convincing argument to the contrary, I'm going to leave the site at the conclusion of this discussion.

Personally, once we can cut through all of the mud-slinging and the insults - I think you make good contributions here, even if others are in disagreement with that. We can all learn something from each other, as someone else said. If I remember correctly, I think you're the one with five children. I have four myself. Perhaps we could trade parenting stories sometime. I'd like to find common ground with the theists here. Religion isn't necessary for that because there are so many other things we can learn about each other. I'm not going to convince you to stick around, as you are free to go, but I think this forum would be losing a good person from the Religious Team that's here. So, don't go. 

Quote: @CL: There are plenty of Christian sites where you can make online friends, and those sites would be better for you.

I disagree with the undertone of saying that she can't make friends here. Of course she could make them elsewhere on the WWW. But I would never have known her if she hadn't ventured in here. She's been a wonderful friend to many of us here. 

Drich: I can't go there. I'm not ready to be forgiving as there's been a lot of fire between us on a lot of things. I won't apologize for that either. So I'm just going to leave it at that because I just can't find it in myself to say nice things at the moment. 

A Theist: I have come to personally know A Theist through a series of PM's in the first part of this year, I believe. He's also been one of the theists here that I've come to defend. Not that he needs it. But along with Deb, I feel he's a valuable contributor here. It's those two that I have a warm spot in my heart for. Believe it or not, the member's photo thread can be looked at as an opportunity to see the human side of those members we would not otherwise give a second glance to. I for one, look forward to seeing all of the wonderful hats he creates and I love teasing him for not smiling in his pictures. If anyone has the privilege of getting to know him "behind the scenes", he's really a nice, sweet person. 

So because of what I consider to be a friendship with AT, like CL, I tend to shy away from many religious threads where they are active because honestly, religion and politics are two of the topics I tend to avoid discussing with close friends unless they happen to share my views. It's a tightrope I don't have an interest in walking on because I value my friendships more than our differing of opinion on those topics. 

That said, I'm glad he posted his thoughts in the Christian only debate thread. That raw honesty gave me a chance to learn more about him than what I had previously known.

I read CL's post and as I expected she came across as nice. I tried to read the others but they were so boring I did not have the attention span to drudge through their mud.

I liked Neo's post least of all. It was worse than Drich's!

I mean, look at what he says here:

Neo Wrote: I see knowledge as a means to an end, not an end unto itself.

That's the problem with your whole view on things, Neo!

It totally sums up how he cares about the Christian agenda more than knowing the truth itself. If his aim was to seek out knowledge for its own sake perhaps he wouldn't be so ignorant of the fact that his faith was a load of bollocks and certainly not worth being made the aim of knowledge.

The other especially pathetic part was this:

Neo Wrote: The Light dwells in the darkness and the darkness knew it not. This lot have put blankets of falsity over their windows having already closed their eyes to truth.

LMAO. Belief and disbelief don't even work like that. You can't choose to shut yourself off from the belief or disbelief when you perceive the evidence or lack thereof. Belief/disbelief is not a choice. The only way truth can really be avoided intentionally is indirectly via things such as confirmation bias. i.e. by seeking knowledge only when it suit your own aims... rather than seeking knowledge for its own sake. Just like he recommends! What he is advocating is confirmation bias! And ironically indirectly doing the very thing he is misaccusing atheists of doing.

Oneself is very much underwhelmed.

So far what I've learned from this is I like CL as much as ever... and I dislike all the others (except RR who hasn't posted yet) slightly less... and dislike Neo slightly more.

And as for this question:

Neo Wrote: As such, if you have no ambitions beyond educating yourself such as overcoming objections of non-believers so they may come to Christ or strengthening your faith to be more effective in other missions?

It didn't even make any sense lol.

If CL has no ambitions beyond that... then what? He's completely missing the then part. If you have no ambitions besides X so they may Y then ??????????

Lol.

I encourage everyone to click on the green arrows in the quote boxes to go to his post that I've extracted the quotes from so you can get the full context of what he is saying here. You'll also note that it doesn't make any of his statements or questions any less silly.

I thought we weren't supposed to be too harsh in this thread? Perhaps I can now see why CL wanted a different section. That's just sad.