(May 8, 2018 at 2:26 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 6:20 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: And my point was that plenty of atheists also think we need fixing. Just as one example, few months ago, Mathilda made a whole thread full of unflattering generalizations about how theists are immature and not properly raised.

(May 7, 2018 at 6:20 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The point of my post in defense of Neo was to say that plenty of people here are guilty of doing exactly what he did. So I think there's a bit of a double standard when Neo gets dragged through the mud for doing the same thing that plenty of people here have done.

I explained already that I had originally held back from writing that thread but after having been offended by theists I decided not to hold back. I can say now that it was predominantly because of some of Neo's threads.

But I shall emphasise the point that I am trying to make because you seem to keep ignoring it.

It is that the theists seem to not understand how they are offending others and therefore see themselves as the only ones who are being hurt when the backlash comes.

That's not to say that what atheists are saying wouldn't be offensive as well. You make valid points about how some of the things said such as religion as a mental illness is offensive. That doesn't mean to say that they aren't necessarily valid arguments though. But I would like to point out one other small thing. This is a fucking atheist forum. This is where atheists come to talk about being an atheist, most often because they have to live lives surrounded by theists offensively trying to save them again after the struggle of breaking free from religion. And some people have been quite abused by religion. Many atheists have to pretend to be a theist and can't even live their own lives. Being a theist you don't have that problem. So don't come here expecting the kind of privilege that you have in your society to be given to you here as well in what for many is an atheist refuge.

Otherwise it's like being a white straight man offended at being told that it's inappropriate to try sleeping with as many women as possible in a woman's refuge.

 I don't believe your bold red statement is necessarily true. I do know that some Christians do not see they are hurting people and it's because they think they can judge atheist because they do not believe. I think that some Christians understand they are hurting atheist and do so purposely because they believe it's the only way to reach them. I think some Christians do it to impress Christians who do hurt atheist. I know all those who do this are child like in their thinking and ignore the words of Jesus. Then you have Christians who try to witness and be polite and are laughed at from both sides. You need to remember when a Christian is speaking to an atheist about God's word he/she has a very hard time being honest without bring up what God's word says and you know what, many of those Christians have already applied those very things to their lives, I know I have, no one is harder on me than myself because I realize that I need all of God's word so my life can be better. The word of God has brought more hurt (justified hurt) to me than all the atheist on this site have over the past 8 years and I accept that hurt because I know it's justified and in the end will make me a better person/Christian. As for hurtful things to say to a Christian is to call them a theist, a theist can be many things but a Christian can only be a follower of Christ. Jesus did not cut the sinners any slack especially those who knew what they were doing was wrong. Yet Jesus did it to help them see that they were outside God's will and wanted nothing more than for them to understand they needed His redemption. Sometimes hurtful things are that because they are true and those are justified as long as it doesn't go into ridicule. Mathilda this isn't just for you but for everyone on this site, Christians included of which I'm one. We all get to sensitive at times and I'm betting that the past has more to do with it than what was said at in a post. 

GC

I am just dropping in to make a brief observation. If I were to give it socks, I would likely break every rule there is.

Suffice it to say that in contrast to almost every superstitionist here, C_L at the very least THINKS about these matters. That is a vast amount more than the rest of the followers of bronze age goatherders.

People like CL for reasons that have nothing to do with religion imo.
I like her a lot as a person despite her silly beliefs.

(May 8, 2018 at 3:36 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: I am just dropping in to make a brief observation. If I were to give it socks, I would likely break every rule there is.

Suffice it to say that in contrast to almost every superstitionist here, C_L at the very least THINKS about these matters. That is a vast amount more than the rest of the followers of bronze age goatherders.

No, they all think about these matters. CL is popular for reasons that have nothing to do with intellectual matters. Watch out for the Halo effect.

(May 8, 2018 at 2:26 am)Mathilda Wrote: That's not to say that what atheists are saying wouldn't be offensive as well. You make valid points about how some of the things said such as religion as a mental illness is offensive. That doesn't mean to say that they aren't necessarily valid arguments though. But I would like to point out one other small thing. This is a fucking atheist forum. This is where atheists come to talk about being an atheist, most often because they have to live lives surrounded by theists offensively trying to save them again after the struggle of breaking free from religion. And some people have been quite abused by religion. Many atheists have to pretend to be a theist and can't even live their own lives. Being a theist you don't have that problem. So don't come here expecting the kind of privilege that you have in your society to be given to you here as well in what for many is an atheist refuge.

Otherwise it's like being a white straight man offended at being told that it's inappropriate to try sleeping with as many women as possible in a woman's refuge.

There are three important points being made here, two of which I strongly agree with.

Lets get the one I disagree with out of the way first involving what it means that "this is a fucking atheist forum".  I think that means it is a forum at which atheists can count on having an equal place at the table, unlike most the other places concerned with discussing religion.  Avoiding 'blasphemy' is not privileged here.  But Tiberius has said repeatedly beginning with the original statement of purpose that all are welcome here.  

Statement of Purpose Wrote:The forums were created for the purpose of providing friendly discussion and debate between atheists and other like-minded individuals, as well as theists. Theists are more than welcome to join and enter into discussions but please bear in mind the nature of this community when entering into a discussion.

 I suppose what might be at the heart of our disagreement is what theists are being cautioned to bear in mind concerning the nature of the community when deciding to join in.

The second point you make I entirely agree with but I don't find it expressly mentioned in the statement of purpose, unless it is being implied in that last bit.  Functionally this has been and will no doubt continue to be a place where atheists who have as you say been badly treated by religion in the rest of their lives can get support for the beliefs they don't share with the mainstream communities where they live.  In my experience, this seems to have a more clearly protected status at TTA than it does here.  I think it matters to most of us but I don't think it translates as reason to tell theists who come here for discussion that they must avoid speech which triggers those horrible feelings for recovering atheists.  We want to be a safe space for atheists but I don't think that is privileged over it being a safe space for everyone who wishes to engage in real discussion.  I'd say this place errs on the side of free speech, and I personally am comfortable with that.

The final point is the one I'd really like to take up but maybe it deserves a thread of its own.  That point concerns the seeming paradox of having respectful discussion when Christians and Muslims hold it as their primary purpose to convert non-Christians and non-Muslims.  As an atheist it has taken some time to reach the point where I can respect an adult's right to hold a religious mindset even though I think the vast majority do so in way too literal a fashion, not hesitating to posit a supernatural zone to hold the denizens of beliefs which can no longer find a home in what we know about the cosmos.  Regardless, I think respectful coexistence demands that I respect their right as an adult to make that choice, even if I suspect it was implanted when they were young.  That is an aspect of their culture and even if no evidence for a supernatural zone can be found, cultures can't be wrong just because some beliefs cannot be supported.  But if I am to go to such lengths to accommodate their culture, is it not reasonable to expect them to do the same?  Should Christians and Muslims living in a multi-cultural environment not also be expected to give up proselytizing?  I only know I can't count as a friend or a peer a theist who asks for my respect for his beliefs and then duplicitously acts to subvert my own in any way possible.

(May 7, 2018 at 9:03 pm)Joods Wrote: Some people really need to stop acting like they were attacked. I didn't agree with your post and spoke my mind about it. Is your ego so fragile that you can't handle any criticism at all?

No... you can't handle me criticizing a theist for giving an idiotic answer after being asked a question despite being critical of the same sort of thing yourself elsewhere (which makes you a hypocrite)... and I stupidly defended your intentions when you looked like a bigot. How ironic.

I can always handle criticism about myself when it isn't stuff like you repeatedly demonstrate: Repeated lies about me being a liar and mindreading about my own intentions as if you know my mind better than I do (projection much?).

False accusations about me being here to cause trouble or saying things designed to bait when that's just repeated bullshit that you make up so often, and you clearly have an agenda, that the only reasonable conclusion is that YOU are the liar here (again, projection much?).

You're the attention whore narcissist with the fragile ego here, so get fucked and goodbye you goddamn motherfucking insincere fuckhead.

I'm absolutely fine. This place, however, is transparently going down the gutter.

(May 8, 2018 at 3:25 am)Godscreated Wrote: I do know that some Christians do not see they are hurting people and it's because they think they can judge atheist because they do not believe. I think that some Christians understand they are hurting atheist and do so purposely because they believe it's the only way to reach them. I think some Christians do it to impress Christians who do hurt atheist. I know all those who do this are child like in their thinking and ignore the words of Jesus. Then you have Christians who try to witness and be polite and are laughed at from both sides. You need to remember when a Christian is speaking to an atheist about God's word he/she has a very hard time being honest without bring up what God's word says and you know what, many of those Christians have already applied those very things to their lives, I know I have, no one is harder on me than myself because I realize that I need all of God's word so my life can be better. The word of God has brought more hurt (justified hurt) to me than all the atheist on this site have over the past 8 years and I accept that hurt because I know it's justified and in the end will make me a better person/Christian.

If you want me to respect your choice to become a better Christian, why can't you respect my choice to become a better atheist? Do you expect me to accept that you are in a better place to know what is right and best than I am? What makes so many Christians hold such an un-humble position? What makes you fit to make such a choice for others?

(May 8, 2018 at 3:25 am)Godscreated Wrote: As for hurtful things to say to a Christian is to call them a theist, a theist can be many things but a Christian can only be a follower of Christ. 

It doesn't help your position to point out you are just as disrespectful toward theists who are not Christians as you are to atheists. Just say you do not respect the right of your fellow man to decide what to believe for himself, and leave it at that.

(May 7, 2018 at 9:16 pm)Fireball Wrote: All the twisted logic I have seen here everywhere (no, I'm not going to publish it all, give me a break!  ) from both sides should give people pause. I can understand defending a position, but what it really comes down to is that a religious person has to have faith. There isn't a rational argument for or against that. Expecting one is a fool's errand. While most atheists realize this, some tilt at that windmill in the hope that those alleged religious or on-the-fence lurkers will be educated in some falsity or another. I don't generally have dialog with the religious because I've done it and seen it all, and it is a waste of time...for both "sides".

It's precisely the fact that there can't be any evidence or logic in favor of it that makes it so irrational and unreasonable to believe.

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(May 7, 2018 at 9:42 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Also Hammy,

If you truly only need one sound argument, the Kalam Cosmological arguement is sound  You don’t see anyone in a debate (professionals) arguing that it isn’t just village atheists on he internet!

LOL LMAO seriously? That's the shit WLC and many other apologists push in formal debates OUTSIDE the internet only to get their asses nailed in those debates by rational skeptics and atheists.

Newsflash: Arguing for a first cause is not even arguing for a deity let alone the Christian one. I BELIEVE in a first cause. But the idea of that first cause being an all-powerful being is laughably pulled out of nowhere.

There's never been a sound argument in favor of theism... which is precisely why people like Neo have to conclude that you can't come to Christianity from a position of reason. Faith is a get out of jail free card. If during a debate where you're supposed to give rational support to your position you have to say "I don't come to my position from reason" you've just lost the debate.

Geez Hammy. I'd like to have a serious discussion and you just can't stop whining about how you feel oppressed. What would it take for this to be a safe enough space for Hammy so that other people can have a discussion once in a while?

(May 7, 2018 at 10:16 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 9:57 pm)Fireball Wrote: "Village atheists", eh? This is part of why you get no respect from me...that supercilious attitude where it isn't called for.

I'm done looking at this lunacy, from you and the rest.

The irony from a discussion calling all theists irrational is pretty humorous here IMHO!  And to clarify I was referring to some making a specific arguments as not being the best and brightest of the bunch.

As I've already pointed out many times before: SAYING THAT ALL THEISM IS IRRATIONAL IS NOT THE SAME THING AS SAYING ALL THEISTS ARE IRRATIONAL.

If I write it in caps will you actually read it this time?

You didn't say atheism was stupid, you aimed your insult at atheists, not atheism, there's a difference. Try to notice.

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(May 8, 2018 at 12:57 am)Grandizer Wrote: So Neo hate has become Hammy hate now. Wonder who's next?

Ha... the difference is that many of my attacks were on Neo's beliefs and not him... and yet even those attacks were mistaken for attacks on him... and I got attacks on me for attacking his stupid beliefs and irrational points. Which is just messed up. AF never used to have SJWs (who aren't liberals) ganging up on you whenever you criticized stupid ideas.

I'm getting ganged up on for no fucking good reason besides speaking my mind over AF exactly the same way I always have. Because THIS PLACE has changed... I HAVEN'T. I never fucking change lol.

Neo is getting ganged up on for being a cunt.

By the way... I am probably going to leave this shithole so if you want to contact me do you still have my Skype? Also I have Discord now so I can give you that too, if you like. You're one of my favorite people here but I forgot that you might not have my Skype anymore.