Open discussion of the Christian Why We're Here thread

[RoadRunner79]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that by your logic, I can say that all atheism  is irrational, but I cannot say that specific arguments made by particular atheists is irrational.  This seems quite backwards to me!  For one, "theism" or "atheism" is a description about one's belief in regards to God.  You cannot say that the "ISM" is irrational, but the person is not.   It is the person who has the belief, and may be rational or irrational; in the forming of that belief, not the ideology.  So I think that you are trying to make a distinction without a difference here.   As to where my insult was aimed, it was pointed at specific arguments.   As I said in the beginning, I don't give much weight to vague and un-falsifiable claims.  If you say, I'm being irrational, show me where; let's look at the claim and see if it is true.  If you say I need education, tell me what I need to learn.  Just telling me, that I'm stupid or irrational, or even my position is nothing more than name calling.  And that is where I have the problem, when there is nothing more to it than that.  Nothing constructive, nothing falsifiable, nothing which can be examined.

That paragraph was seriously fucked up.

Care to be more specific?

[*Deidre*]

I’ve come back to believing in God and the reason I still post here is because I joined here when I was an atheist and have made some e-friends.

I can’t speak for theists but from observations, I think that there is an underlying hope that atheists will at least respect the views of theists and maybe choose faith, at some point. Some theists are very blunt and direct in this approach, others socialize and don’t really debate much about it. But any theist’s hope is that all people discover the joy of a relationship with God. As a believer, I don’t feel shame in that but atheists might want to convince believers that a belief in a god is not necessary for a joyful life. It is all in our perceptions and experiences that lead us to where we are, I think.

It helped me immensely leaving Christianity and identifying as an atheist to really understand this.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Wow, big letters. The fact that you say demeaning, nasty generalizations about theists (like that entire thread you made) and then drag Neo through the mud when he generalizes shows that you are completely oblivious and lack self awareness yourself.

I said that I was aware of the potential for that thread to be offensive multiple times now. I also explained how I reached a threshold with Neo's threads where I no longer gave a crap. Ignore it if you wish, I'm not going to keep repeating myself with you.

You mention referring to religiosity as a mental illness as being offensive. I'd like to remind you that christianity has been doing this for many, many years now. Homosexuality has only relatively recently been declassified as a mental illness. Gender dysphoria has been treated as such even more recently. There have been many cases where women in the past who were not content to live the domestic lives laid out for them by a religiously indoctrinated society used to be sent off to asylums where many underwent lobotomies. Not to mention the current abuse still being carried out by the Catholic church protecting pedophiles who then are free to abuse more children, taking children away from women to be adopted, and the religious right in America deliberately causing more deaths of women with their anti-abortionist stance. This is the America that religious Trump supporters yearn for and are fighting to bring back. The religious right still promote the idea of homosexuality and transsexuality as a mental illness. Neo has started multiple threads pushing this very agenda.

You and the other christians have talked about being representatives of christianity on this forum. Well that comes with historical baggage. In the same way that when complaining about the poor service of a company I know that the person I am talking to is not the one solely responsible. Yet they are still there as a representative of their employers. So if you come here representing christianity then you should expect to have a backlash from both the historical and current abuses carried out in its name. Because as a professed christian you are saying that you not only agree with these abuses but financially support the institutions  responsible for them. That means you are partly responsible for the ones being carried out today.

You live in America. A semi- quasi- theocracy by all accounts, so you are speaking from a position of privilege as a theist in such a society. As such the idea of religiosity as a mental illness seems absurd. After all, it does not make sense for the majority in a society to be suffering the same mental illness. But what if someone told you that they had a personal relationship with the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl and could actually sense his presence and their prayers were answered by him? Don't tell me that you wouldn't wonder about their mental stability. I live in the United Kingdom where such extreme religiosity is now thankfully a rarity. Regular church-going christians are a minority and fast becoming rarer. So telling someone here that you have a personal relationship with Jesus here is similar to saying the same about Quetzalcoatl.

It has since been shown that homosexuals will lead normal, fulfilled lives as much as anyone else if they are not subject to the levels of bigotry that they used to be. The same with transsexuals, and science has since shown that they were correct in what they were telling psychiatrists and that it was not a delusion. Yet there is absolutely no solid evidence for a god that defies all known laws of physics and which cannot be measured in lab conditions. So while you may personally find it offensive, it is absolutely valid to point out the similarities between religiosity and mental illness. At the very least it's worthwhile to discuss whether being able to sense something that by all means is not there is a form of delusion considering what we know about confirmation biases, cognitive dissonance, conditioning etc

But here you and other christians are complaining about being offended and wanting the privilege you're used to extended to this forum while at the same time talking about being representatives of your religion. Then complain when people do see you as such a representative. I see now what Whateverist means about hypocrisy. Neo especially deserves to be dragged through the mud on this forum for actively promoting the bigotry that has led to his religion's abuses in the past. You don't come out of it clean yourself.

[KevinM1]

[Whateverist]

Just to be clear the only hypocrisy I had in mind was of Neo wanting respect for his worldview while insisting that changing ours was the only respectable reason for xtians as xtians to be here. Everyone is hypocritical about something to some degree at least some of the time. I had felt friendly toward Neo but that comment made it clear that it was not mutual.

[GrandizerII]

By the way... I am probably going to leave this shithole so if you want to contact me do you still have my Skype? Also I have Discord now so I can give you that too, if you like. You're one of my favorite people here but I forgot that you might not have my Skype anymore.

I dont have Skype anymore, thats the thing. And Ive forgotten my Skype login details anyway. But I am considering getting a Facebook account to access BMD's page, so if you want, pm me your Facebook link and once I sign up, Ill add you.

Im considering leaving this forum myself and maybe give TTA a try.

[Foxaèr]

Im considering leaving this forum myself and maybe give TTA a try.

I don't recommend it.

[Whateverist]

By the way... I am probably going to leave this shithole so if you want to contact me do you still have my Skype? Also I have Discord now so I can give you that too, if you like. You're one of my favorite people here but I forgot that you might not have my Skype anymore.

I dont have Skype anymore, thats the thing. And Ive forgotten my Skype login details anyway. But I am considering getting a Facebook account to access BMD's page, so if you want, pm me your Facebook link and once I sign up, Ill add you.

Im considering leaving this forum myself and maybe give TTA a try.

I'd be sorry to see you go.  Is it because of the talk of a 'pink' sub-forum?

[Catholic_Lady]

Wow, big letters. The fact that you say demeaning, nasty generalizations about theists (like that entire thread you made) and then drag Neo through the mud when he generalizes shows that you are completely oblivious and lack self awareness yourself.

I said that I was aware of the potential for that thread to be offensive multiple times now. I also explained how I reached a threshold with Neo's threads where I no longer gave a crap. Ignore it if you wish, I'm not going to keep repeating myself with you.

You mention referring to religiosity as a mental illness as being offensive. I'd like to remind you that christianity has been doing this for many, many years now. Homosexuality has only relatively recently been declassified as a mental illness. Gender dysphoria has been treated as such even more recently. There have been many cases where women in the past who were not content to live the domestic lives laid out for them by a religiously indoctrinated society used to be sent off to asylums where many underwent lobotomies. Not to mention the current abuse still being carried out by the Catholic church protecting pedophiles who then are free to abuse more children, taking children away from women to be adopted, and the religious right in America deliberately causing more deaths of women with their anti-abortionist stance. This is the America that religious Trump supporters yearn for and are fighting to bring back. The religious right still promote the idea of homosexuality and transsexuality as a mental illness. Neo has started multiple threads pushing this very agenda.

You and the other christians have talked about being representatives of christianity on this forum. Well that comes with historical baggage. In the same way that when complaining about the poor service of a company I know that the person I am talking to is not the one solely responsible. Yet they are still there as a representative of their employers. So if you come here representing christianity then you should expect to have a backlash from both the historical and current abuses carried out in its name. Because as a professed christian you are saying that you not only agree with these abuses but financially support the institutions  responsible for them. That means you are partly responsible for the ones being carried out today.

You live in America. A semi- quasi- theocracy by all accounts, so you are speaking from a position of privilege as a theist in such a society. As such the idea of religiosity as a mental illness seems absurd. After all, it does not make sense for the majority in a society to be suffering the same mental illness. But what if someone told you that they had a personal relationship with the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl and could actually sense his presence and their prayers were answered by him? Don't tell me that you wouldn't wonder about their mental stability. I live in the United Kingdom where such extreme religiosity is now thankfully a rarity. Regular church-going christians are a minority and fast becoming rarer. So telling someone here that you have a personal relationship with Jesus here is similar to saying the same about Quetzalcoatl.

It has since been shown that homosexuals will lead normal, fulfilled lives as much as anyone else if they are not subject to the levels of bigotry that they used to be. The same with transsexuals, and science has since shown that they were correct in what they were telling psychiatrists and that it was not a delusion. Yet there is absolutely no solid evidence for a god that defies all known laws of physics and which cannot be measured in lab conditions. So while you may personally find it offensive, it is absolutely valid to point out the similarities between religiosity and mental illness. At the very least it's worthwhile to discuss whether being able to sense something that by all means is not there is a form of delusion considering what we know about confirmation biases, cognitive dissonance, conditioning etc

But here you and other christians are complaining about being offended and wanting the privilege you're used to extended to this forum while at the same time talking about being representatives of your religion. Then complain when people do see you as such a representative. I see now what Whateverist means about hypocrisy. Neo especially deserves to be dragged through the mud on this forum for actively promoting the bigotry that has led to his religion's abuses in the past. You don't come out of it clean yourself.

First of all, let me remind you of the very first post I made pointing out this double standard where I clearly state I'm not complaining. I also don't see where I ask for "special privileges" here, as you so accuse me of as well. I have conveniently bolded the relevant parts for you:  

But that's the thing though. People here say terribly offensive things and make generalizations and assumptions about theists all the time lol. Just look through the threads and even some of the thread titles alone. The generalizations and offensive things Neo said about atheists on the debate thread don't really compare to the amount aimed at theists throughout the rest of the forums. 

I'm not saying this to complain about it. It's an atheist forum, so of course. I get it lol. My point is simply to point out the double standard I'm seeing. People think Neo is a horrible person for the things he's said about atheists, while everyone else is fine and dandy for what they say about theists. Don't you guys see that? 

And yes, Neo is a smartass a lot of times and come off cold and says some insulting things to people that piss them off. But nothing I've seen him say to people is as bad as what I've seen people say to him. And a lot of the reason he is like that is as a response to people having done it to him first, not as the instigator of it all. I am being a completely objective observer here when I say this. I'm not saying he's right to insult people right back or that his generalizations are fair. What I'm saying is that I'm seeing a double standard here, in some people thinking he's awful or sociopathic for saying these things, when many of you guys do the same thing... and do it worse even lol. 

Mathilda made a comment to me on a thread that got deleted, that I supposedly "know very well" that as long as us theists are nice, you'll be nice to us. I'm sorry, but this hasn't necessarily been the case lol. It took a while for me to earn respect around here, despite me being very careful to be respectful right off the bat. Someone with less patience and less faith in humanity than myself would probably have given up on trying to stay nice pretty soon after joining. 

Again, I'm not complaining about this. I just don't think some people are seeing the double standards when they're pegging Neo as this awful person who insults people and makes mean generalizations about atheists.

So, now that that's out of the way, hopefully your accusations of me "complaining" and me "asking for privileges" will stop. 

As for the rest of your post, I'm honestly not seeing how it follows much from me pointing out a double standard I have seen here. 

So please clarify this for me before we continue:

When I say that it's a double standard that Neo is getting dragged through the mud for making generalizations by people who themselves have made plenty of generalizations, are you.... 

1. Disagreeing with me and saying there is NO double standard? 

OR

2. Admitting that there is a double standard but that it's ok because Christians, as a whole, deserve it and this is an atheist forum?   

(PS- Remember that other thread you made a while back ago where you posted an article saying that it had been psychologically proven that theists are mentally ill, only to find out after the fact that the article was complete satire? I do. Just wanted to remind you of that other gem as you drag Neo through the mud for having generalized atheists.)

[I_am_not_mafia]

When I say that it's a double standard that Neo is getting dragged through the mud for making generalizations by people who themselves have made plenty of generalizations, are you.... 

1. Disagreeing with me and saying there is NO double standard? 

OR

2. Admitting that there is a double standard but that it's ok because Christians, as a whole, deserve it and this is an atheist forum?   

I'm trying to explain that him getting dragged through the mud is because of his own actions. I'm not excusing anyone. I'm not saying whether he should or should not get dragged through the mud. I also postulated that theists don't always understand how they offend others and can see themselves as the injured party. I was not saying one side was worse than the other but you ignored all that, kept trying to excuse Neo and made your argument that both sides do it. I was trying to explain why that is. You seem rather upset by this for some reason.

All I read were the huge red underlined letters. Thats what happens when you scream at me I suppose. Hard to hear the rest. If she wants to have a normal conversarion I will be more than happy to engage with her.

Maybe you should have bothered reading the post I made. At least you know, if only so we're both talking about the same thing. That was the reason for putting that sentence in big bold red after all.