As usual, Khem is completely misrepresenting my position. So for anyone reading this, please keep in mind what he's saying is not true.

Maybe we should instruct the cops to stop interfering, while we're at it.  Wouldn;t want to ruin gods grand plan or anything.  All they;re doing is obstructing this future better world beyond the grave.

How are those kids gonna get their golden ticket if they don;t get raped?

(May 17, 2018 at 10:55 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But for God to prevent it, it would mean supernatural devine intervention. The whole point of this world is that it is a natural world where God allows things to happen as they will. If God were to do His magic every time something bad was about to happen, or every time a person was about to use their free will for evil deeds, this wouldn't be Earth, it wouldn't be a natural world. And there wouldn't really be a difference between this life and the next, supernatural one.

I trust that since God can see everything and knows everything, and I don't/can't, that the world being this way will all make sense in the long run and will overall have a net good. We just cant see that in the here and now.

So according to God it must be worth it? This is what I mean by him being a moral monster. Nothing is worth it and nothing can be. Unless literally the only alternative was even worse rape and harm. But surely God can prevent that? Surely God can make the alternative to child rape to be less child rape or, wow, even ZERO child rape. But he chooses it anyway because he's a moral monster.

There is no amount of heaven or reward or free will that can ever be worth the world that God allows. The only improvement is to decrease that suffering, which God is perfectly capable of doing. It's not like he's choosing between the awfulness of the world and hellfire... he's choosing between the awfulness of the world and whatever he wants. And what he wants right now is the awfulness of the world. If he thinks it is 'worth it' he must be a moral monster.

Quote:Not a perfect analogy by any means, but it's along the same concept as me taking my cats to the vet. They get extremely upset. They hate riding in the car, they hate being put inside those little carriers, they get freaked out of their minds by the vet poking them with needles and sticking thermometers up their butt. They cry and scream and get mad at me for having them go through that. They can't possibly understand why it needs to happen that way, and that it's all for the better in the long run.

It's a very false analogy because God made it so cats have to suffer like that or that they even need to go to the vet in the first place. God deliberately and intentionally allows suffering and horribly unspeakable things to even be capable of happening in the world in the first place. God either doesn't care or he's the ultimate sadist.

(May 17, 2018 at 11:07 am)Hammy Wrote:

(May 17, 2018 at 10:55 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But for God to prevent it, it would mean supernatural devine intervention. The whole point of this world is that it is a natural world where God allows things to happen as they will. If God were to do His magic every time something bad was about to happen, or every time a person was about to use their free will for evil deeds, this wouldn't be Earth, it wouldn't be a natural world. And there wouldn't really be a difference between this life and the next, supernatural one.

I trust that since God can see everything and knows everything, and I don't/can't, that the world being this way will all make sense in the long run and will overall have a net good. We just cant see that in the here and now.

So according to God it must be worth it? This is what I mean by him being a moral monster. Nothing is worth it and nothing can be. Unless literally the only alternative was even worse rape and harm. But surely God can prevent that? Surely God can make the alternative to child rape to be less child rape or, wow, even ZERO child rape. But he chooses it anyway because he's a moral monster.

There is no amount of heaven or reward or free will that can ever be worth the world that God allows. The only improvement is to decrease that suffering, which God is perfectly capable of doing. It's not like he's choosing between the awfulness of the world and hellfire... he's choosing between the awfulness of the world and whatever he wants. And what he wants right now is the awfulness of the world. If he thinks it is 'worth it' he must be a moral monster.

Quote:Not a perfect analogy by any means, but it's along the same concept as me taking my cats to the vet. They get extremely upset. They hate riding in the car, they hate being put inside those little carriers, they get freaked out of their minds by the vet poking them with needles and sticking thermometers up their butt. They cry and scream and get mad at me for having them go through that. They can't possibly understand why it needs to happen that way, and that it's all for the better in the long run.

It's a very false analogy because God made it so cats have to suffer like that or that they even need to go to the vet in the first place. God deliberately and intentionally allows suffering and horribly unspeakable things to even be capable of happening in the world in the first place. God either doesn't care or he's the ultimate sadist.

Allowing us humans to have free will and allowing this world to be a natural world, as a whole, will have a net good as far as the big picture goes, yes.

This does not mean that each individual bad thing that happens or bad thing a person does, happens for a good reason or is "worth it." There is no good that comes from a child being raped. Ever.

(May 17, 2018 at 11:05 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As usual, Khem is completely misrepresenting my position. So for anyone reading this, please keep in mind what he's saying is not true.

You did say that from God's point of view child rape must be worth it in the long run and we must just not understand his point of view. You said that in the end there will be a net good.

(May 17, 2018 at 11:19 am)Hammy Wrote:

(May 17, 2018 at 11:05 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As usual, Khem is completely misrepresenting my position. So for anyone reading this, please keep in mind what he's saying is not true.

You did say that from God's point of view child rape must be worth it in the long run and we must just not understand his point of view. You said that in the end there will be a net good.

I absolutely did NOT say that. Please don't fall into doing the same thing Khem does that we both hate.

(May 17, 2018 at 10:59 am)Hammy Wrote: Even if I were a theist I would not let the idea of God's motives being mysterious or the excuse of "free will" excuse such things as child rape.

We cannot give a better answer than the one provided by Holy Scripture. Joseph was kidnapped and left for dead in the desert only to later become the chief adviser to Pharaoh. And years later, he showed mercy on his brothers saying, "You meant it for evil but God turned it into good." This doesn't mean that God desired for Joseph's Brothers to do evil; but rather, that God was able to transform the evil choices of the brothers and turn them into good. I do not believe this is a logical conundrum. It merely reveals how someone chooses to respond to Divine Providence: either with incredulity as an excuse to reject God or by accepting the authority of God while drawing closer to the Savior in our distress.

(May 17, 2018 at 11:14 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Allowing us humans to have free will and allowing this world to be a natural world, as a whole, will have a net good as far as the big picture goes, yes.

A net good over child rape and animal cruelty and all the worst things in the world? I definitely disagree.

Quote:This does not mean that each individual bad thing that happens or bad thing a person does, happens for a good reason or is "worth it." There is no good that comes from a child being raped. Ever.

We agree on that but you seem to think that God allows this for a good reason. You seem to think that if God intervened to prevent it then that wouldn't be a better thing for him to do than to sit back and allow it to happen.

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(May 17, 2018 at 11:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 17, 2018 at 10:59 am)Hammy Wrote: Even if I were a theist I would not let the idea of God's motives being mysterious or the excuse of "free will" excuse such things as child rape.

We cannot give a better answer than the one provided by Holy Scripture.

Indeed you cannot. And that's why this 'Holy scripture' is so immoral. It should be called unholy scripture as you're basically glorifying the idea of a deity that simply does not care at best and is outright sadistic at worst.

Quote:Joseph was kidnapped and left for dead in the desert only to later become the chief adviser to Pharaoh. And years later, he showed mercy on his brothers saying, "You meant it for evil but God turned it into good." I do not believe this is a logical conundrum. It merely reveals how someone chooses to respond to Divine Providence: either with incredulity as an excuse to not believe or reject God or by accepting the authority of God while drawing closer to the Savior in our distress.

This has got nothing to do with belief or unbelief in God. So the idea of it being incredulity as an excuse to not believe is absurd. This has everything to do with if God exists He's clearly a moral monster.

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(May 17, 2018 at 11:20 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 17, 2018 at 11:19 am)Hammy Wrote: You did say that from God's point of view child rape must be worth it in the long run and we must just not understand his point of view. You said that in the end there will be a net good.

I absolutely did NOT say that. Please don't fall into doing the same thing Khem does that we both hate.

I am not doing the same thing Khem does I'm talking about what your position entails.

You said that God must allow it for a good reason and that there will be a net good in the long run... yes? Do I have to go back and quote your post and put parts of it in bold to show that I am not misrepresenting what you said?

The whole point of my question was that God is perfectly capable of preventing it if he exists but he chooses not to.

(May 17, 2018 at 11:21 am)Hammy Wrote:

(May 17, 2018 at 11:14 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Allowing us humans to have free will and allowing this world to be a natural world, as a whole, will have a net good as far as the big picture goes, yes.

A net good over child rape and animal cruelty and all the worst things in the world? I definitely disagree.

Quote:This does not mean that each individual bad thing that happens or bad thing a person does, happens for a good reason or is "worth it." There is no good that comes from a child being raped. Ever.

We agree on that but you seem to think that God allows this for a good reason. You seem to think that if God intervened to prevent it then that wouldn't be a better thing for him to do than sit back and allow it to happen.

Free will, in and of itself, is overall a good thing. It allows us the freedom to understand the differences between good and evil and the freedom to choose between the two. It's part of what makes us free and rational beings. It's part of what makes us human. The existance of humanity will have a net good.

This does not mean that everything we use free will for will have a net good.

(May 17, 2018 at 11:27 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Free will, in and of itself, is overall a good thing. It allows us the freedom to understand the differences between good and evil and the freedom to choose between the two. It's part of what makes us free and rational beings. It's part of what makes us human. The existance of humanity will have a net good.

And that net good is worth the things God doesn't intervene to prevent including child rape, animal cruelty and all the worst things in the world?

Quote:This does not mean that everything we use free will for will have a net good.

But it does mean that God thinks it is worth it . . .