(September 8, 2011 at 2:38 pm)frankiej Wrote: We don't steal our morality from scripture. There are people who have never heard of the ten commandments or other bullshit, who seem to do fine.

That’s completely in line with what scripture teaches. You have a sense of morality that is innate because you are created in the image of God and through God’s grace you have been granted an internal awareness of the truth. This is why you appeal to transcendent concepts of morality that could not exist given your worldview.

(September 8, 2011 at 2:44 pm)Shell B Wrote: These are my favorite kinds of threads. The kind that degenerate into a conversation that will never end.

As for the OP, I wouldn't waste my time, if I were you. I personally don't give a shit what people believe, as long as they are not hurting other people. If you spend your life trying to change their minds, you'll find you have wasted your life. You can't take away people's crutches, easily. Take our dear friend Stat for example.

Stop stealing from my worldview just because it's more consistent than yours. It’s not a matter of taking away my crutch, it’s a matter of me not letting you be irrational and deny truth.

(September 8, 2011 at 3:07 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Funny how that works huh?

Tell it to Cardinal Torquemada, Pope Urban II, and John Calvin. Murdering fucks, every last one of them and all claiming that god gave them the right to do it.


I defy you to find evidence of Stalin proclaiming that NOT GOD gave him the right to kill anyone. ( NOT COMMUNISTS yes...but he didn't give a shit about your god)

Neither do I.

History is not your strength is it? Calvin never murdered anyone; rather he was one of the most influential scholars in the history of man. Either way, Stalin’s 50 million dead out numbers any atrocity committed by anyone claiming to be religious, I’ll even let you throw in the Muslims if you’d like. Stalin’s own testimony is clear that he left the Orthodox Church because of Darwinism and used his atheistic naturalism to justify his murdering of the weak. Atheists really need to drop the blame game, because it really only shines the light on their own defective and evil worldview.

This ought to be fun though, given your worldview why would it be "wrong" to kill anyone? I know why it is wrong; I want to see if you can justify it given your worldview.

If the morals are within me from God... Then why do I think it as wrong to bow to such a tyrrant?

(September 8, 2011 at 2:34 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:

(September 8, 2011 at 2:22 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Actually, both Hitler and Pol Pot were the products of catholic education and Stalin attended a Greek Orthodox seminary.

All three learned the lessons of religion quite well in my opinion.

Except when they were murdering millions they didn’t believe in the triune God of scripture and were strict Darwinists. Funny how that works huh? :-P Given your same perverted logic, if someone was an atheist, but then became a Christian and murdered millions we could blame it on the fact that they used to be an atheist.

The problem there was not their atheism (although, given all I've studied of Hitler, it's possible he still believed in a God as he claimed, and it's virtually impossible for any sane person to look at the history of anti-semitism in Europe without completely removing Christian influences), but the fact that their chosen political ideologies were so utterly inflexible and all-encompassing that they may as well have been a religion, and came to be so dominated by an us-vs-them mentality that it only became a matter of time before it led to mass killings.

(September 8, 2011 at 3:28 pm)frankiej Wrote: If the morals are within me from God... Then why do I think it as wrong to bow to such a tyrrant?

Simply because you are also a fallen and rebellious creature; you will never conform fully to God’s decreed will and are unable to even do so until and unless He redeems you through His saving grace. I sincerely hope He does some day.

(September 8, 2011 at 3:28 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: The problem there was not their atheism (although, given all I've studied of Hitler, it's possible he still believed in a God as he claimed, and it's virtually impossible for any sane person to look at the history of anti-semitism in Europe without completely removing Christian influences), but the fact that their chosen political ideologies were so utterly inflexible and all-encompassing that they may as well have been a religion, and came to be so dominated by an us-vs-them mentality that it only became a matter of time before it led to mass killings.

When I make such bold claims I immediately get challenged to provide dozens of peer reviewed sources, yet everyone just lets your statements slide simply because they agree with them. It must be nice to be the beneficiary of such a lop-sided double standard.

So I have one atheist telling me that everyone knows Hitler was a Christian, yet five minutes later another atheist is telling me that Hitler was most likely some form of theist (something I don’t really dispute). Sounds like you guys need to get on the same sheet of music.

So when a religious person murders someone it is a direct result of them being religious, but when an atheist murders millions it is a direct result of their political affiliation and has nothing to do with their atheism? How convenient!!

(September 8, 2011 at 6:11 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: When I make such bold claims I immediately get challenged to provide dozens of peer reviewed sources, yet everyone just lets your statements slide simply because they agree with them. It must be nice to be the beneficiary of such a lop-sided double standard.

So when a religious person murders someone it is a direct result of them being religious, but when an atheist murders millions it is a direct result of their political affiliation and has nothing to do with their atheism? How convenient!!

If you would stop regurgitating tired arguments you'd probably be treated with more respect and less lulz.

It is what it is Statler, when people claim that god compells or commands them to do this or that, or that god has provided them with this or that right, the blame falls on religion. We'd blame god if he existed but we know that's just a copout. You see, no one can claim that atheism commands anything, or gives any rights. That's the difference. If you don't like the way that religion is viewed than do something about it. Reconsider your beliefs and stop perpetuating a cycle of violence and disregard for human life.

(September 8, 2011 at 6:11 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: So when a religious person murders someone it is a direct result of them being religious, but when an atheist murders millions it is a direct result of their political affiliation and has nothing to do with their atheism? How convenient!!

Not quite. What I'm talking about isn't so much about politics as ideology. And when one ideology becomes all-encompassing enough (Christianity, Islam, Communism, and Naziism, have at some point fallen victim to this) and decides that certain people or even certain ethnic groups don't count as part of the human aggregate, that's where things gets dangerous.
In Short: All-encompassing ideology + Us vs. Them mentality = Complete Mother****ing Disaster.

Quote:When I make such bold claims I immediately get challenged to provide dozens of peer reviewed sources, yet everyone just lets your statements slide simply because they agree with them. It must be nice to be the beneficiary of such a lop-sided double standard.

Where have you been asked to give dozens of sources? I know you've often been asked to give one source, but I don't think they specified that it had to be peer-reviewed, and that little equation, as informal and simplistic as it may be, can be applied to several cases throughout recorded history and it does hold up quite a bit. However, your idea of atheism leading to everything being permitted leading to genocide in non-religious countries just doesn't hold up. For instance, a lot of continental Europe (and I'm not even talking about the nations behind the Iron Curtain, but also nations like France, and much of Scandinavia) has been unapologetically secular for decades, and we don't see them committing genocides, do we? Conversely, when people commit genocides, we never ever see them saying that the non-existence of God is a reason to kill. In fact, it often seems that atheism isn't so much a cause as a side effect of their systems. Even in the Communist regimes, when religious people were persecuted it was because they viewed them as threats to the state (no matter how misguided those threats may seem in hindsight).

Quote:So I have one atheist telling me that everyone knows Hitler was a Christian, yet five minutes later another atheist is telling me that Hitler was most likely some form of theist (something I don’t really dispute). Sounds like you guys need to get on the same sheet of music.

Yeah, there's quite a few disputes between atheists, (for instance, I reached my conclusion about Hitler's religion after studying the Third Reich, which is something I do in my spare time, in the hope of creating a film script about the Holocaust) and I think that this is a big part of why atheism isn't that big of a threat, or, regrettably or not, much of a political force, as just about the only thing atheists believe in common is that there's no real reason to believe in God.

(September 8, 2011 at 6:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If you would stop regurgitating tired arguments you'd probably be treated with more respect and less lulz.

I will present arguments until they are refuted. If you don’t like them, refute them, you whining about them doesn’t get you anywhere.

Quote: It is what it is Statler, when people claim that god compells or commands them to do this or that, or that god has provided them with this or that right, the blame falls on religion.

No it doesn’t, it falls on the person doing the deed.

Quote: We'd blame god if he existed but we know that's just a copout.

You can’t account for any moral authority that you could even use to charge God with anything, talk about trying to wage war with an invisible sword.

Quote: You see, no one can claim that atheism commands anything, or gives any rights.

Of course they can, as Jeffrey Dahmer pointed out, if there really is no God then nobody owns you and you can do whatever you feel like doing to anyone you feel like doing it to.

Quote: Reconsider your beliefs and stop perpetuating a cycle of violence and disregard for human life.

A pro-choice atheist lecturing a pro-life Christian about having regard for human life is absurd.

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(September 8, 2011 at 6:33 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: Not quite. What I'm talking about isn't so much about politics as ideology. And when one ideology becomes all-encompassing enough (Christianity, Islam, Communism, and Naziism, have at some point fallen victim to this) and decides that certain people or even certain ethnic groups don't count as part of the human aggregate, that's where things gets dangerous.

I completely agree, although it's regrettable you don't include into your list of ideologies the atheistic ones. Perhaps it just slipped your mind, I hope this is the case.

Your post is drivel start to finish as usual. I love that you cap it off by reading my mind, and apparently proving that you're not a very good mind reader. You should have asked god for verification before you stated someone else's position on something. It makes you look like an idiot.

Total Depravity- Devalues human life from the outset
Unconditional Election - Cosmic Ethnocentrism
Limited Atonement- Justice for some but not all.
Irresistable Grace- People as property incapable of making decisions
Perserverance of the Saints- More of the above.

Christianity should have more to offer than the hateful shit you've hung your hat on.

(September 8, 2011 at 6:43 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Your post is drivel start to finish as usual. I love that you cap it off by reading my mind, and apparently proving that you're not a very good mind reader. You should have asked god for verification before you stated someone else's position on something. It makes you look like an idiot.

Wasn't so much mind reading, was recalling earlier posts, if I remembered incorrectly and you are actually a pro-life atheist; I apologize and commend you for being at least consistent on that position.

Keep your praise, it makes me feel like less of a human being.