Atlas, fear is the protecting aspect of love and it's highest aspect when it comes to all levels including appreciation, since it includes protecting what one is given out of appreciation.

If we appreciate the life given by God to us, naturally, we fear consequences of his wrath and evil destination, and the burning taste of evil of our actions.

There is line from Du'a Kumail "Suppose you give me patience to endure thy punishment, how can I endure separation from you", the latter must become a greater fear eventually, one day, you have to fear distance from God more then any pain.

It's not easy to reach that state, and I'm not claiming I am at that state, but it's a step that will open many doors of blessings.

The thing that would best put the swag question to rest with me is any theist answering the following hypothetical question:

Hypothetically, God decides that heaven will be no more. Instead, in the future, all believers will go to hell... but not as a punishment but rather as an extended... eternal... form of martyrdom. In this hypothetical, God accepts/judges his followers as worthy (ie in the old system they would have gone to heaven) but it is nonetheless his Will that they should endure hell forever in service to his will. And 'forever' is written in stone... God promises that there will be no reprieve, ever, no matter how much they may ask for it. If they accept the deal then, their only comforts are that they are deemed worthy by God and are doing his will. In life I'm sure there are many examples of this sort of mindset in play... of enduring adversity for the sake of doing God's will... not least with actual martyrs... but this hypothetical takes the question to the extreme; who, if anyone, loves God so much, and respects his will so much, that they would willingly suffer permanent suffering in service to that will? Who would do so, obediently and unquestioningly, accepting that God's will is God's will and man has no right to judge it, regardless of how fair or unfair it may seem?

I don't think Christians are unconcerned with the truth. I wasn't. They just don't have an effective way of pursuing it.

Emjay, God is a being worthy of worship. Contrary to what Atheist say, he is not non-falsifiable, but there is many reasons to reject a version of God.

And yes the world could be in a state where a Being worthy of worship, is impossible to exist in that world.

And more volatile than that, and more falsifiable, are holy books. If there is no reasons in them to even think them to be from God, they are definitely not from God.

And book that is completely the seal of such books, all of it has to be protected and has to not only sheer perfection, but a level that is within our grasp to appreciate that it's a miracle yet constantly without end unraveling is it's mysterious wonders.

There can't be any book like it among humans, whether Jinn or humans combine to bring about books like it, if they do, it would be proven wrong.

And it's explanation to why the world is in this state as is, has to be a good explanation. I use to be a Deist, and the problem of evil impacted me a lot. I could not explain suffering really and had the funniest explanations to them.

But those explanations had in me a Compassionate God that punishes no oppressors, because, I wanted to be against the notion of hell in Abrahamic faiths, and at the same time, I went out to explain the world of suffering as is, and really Deism fails in so many respects, God doing nothing in this fallen world, never trying to restore it to justice... not doing anything through out history....

Deism fails - if Deism is true, it's impossible the Creator be worthy of worship in my view for example. Yes, people can convince themselves as I did, but with rational thought, God has to be active in the world, and is the super power, he and his forces, on earth... though people perceive it not in the past till they are destroyed by that which they mocked.

(May 30, 2018 at 4:33 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Emjay, God is a being worthy of worship...

Yeah, but the question is, would you be willing to worship him from Hell, forever, if he so decreed?

(May 30, 2018 at 4:38 pm)emjay Wrote:

(May 30, 2018 at 4:33 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Emjay, God is a being worthy of worship...

Yeah, but the question is, would you be willing to worship him from Hell, forever, if he so decreed?

I think I answered your question. And the answer is no and it's impossible to worship such a being, because true worship is a vision of truth of what has value to the extent it alone is worthy of worship.  The aspects that come to this world from that being show it's impossible and you would not be asking this question if it was not so. Your question proves objective morality is ingrained in you as well.

You might as well ask would I worship shit if it created this world and commanded me to worship it. I could not do it no matter how much I tried. It's impossible, because shit can't be worthy of worship.

(May 30, 2018 at 4:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(May 30, 2018 at 4:38 pm)emjay Wrote: Yeah, but the question is, would you be willing to worship him from Hell, forever, if he so decreed?

I think I answered your question. And the answer is no and it's impossible to worship such a being, because true worship is a vision of truth of what has value to the extent it alone is worthy of worship.  The aspects that come to this world from that being show it's impossible and you would not be asking this question if it was not so. Your question proves objective morality is ingrained in you as well.

You might as well ask would I worship shit if it created this world and commanded me to worship it. I could not do it no matter how much I tried. It's impossible, because shit can't be worthy of worship.

So you would only deem him worthy of worship if he provided you with good things? It's not awe of him creating the world? Not awe, fear, and worship of a God that is above man and can do anything it pleases?

(May 30, 2018 at 4:54 pm)emjay Wrote:

(May 30, 2018 at 4:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think I answered your question. And the answer is no and it's impossible to worship such a being, because true worship is a vision of truth of what has value to the extent it alone is worthy of worship.  The aspects that come to this world from that being show it's impossible and you would not be asking this question if it was not so. Your question proves objective morality is ingrained in you as well.

You might as well ask would I worship shit if it created this world and commanded me to worship it. I could not do it no matter how much I tried. It's impossible, because shit can't be worthy of worship.

So you would only deem him worthy of worship if he provided you with good things? It's not awe of him creating the world? Not awe, fear, and worship of a God that is above man and can do anything it pleases?

I think I answered your question already. I would deem him worthy of worship if he was sheer absolute perfection and the way you described him in your hypothetical, was more like an abusive tyrant.

(May 30, 2018 at 4:56 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(May 30, 2018 at 4:54 pm)emjay Wrote: So you would only deem him worthy of worship if he provided you with good things? It's not awe of him creating the world? Not awe, fear, and worship of a God that is above man and can do anything it pleases?

I think I answered your question already. I would deem him worthy of worship if he was sheer absolute perfection and the way you described him in your hypothetical, was more like an abusive tyrant.

But what if it was part of a bigger plan from his point of view? Ie theists are always saying when anything goes wrong 'God works in mysterious ways'... so why not have the same confidence in this case that it was part of a bigger plan?

I think it's upon God to explain his plan. I think the Torah did a good job of that, but since it's full of crap as well that is mixed with it's treasures, it's become problematic to rely on it.

I believe the Quran has explained his supposed too mysterious ways of why things are the way they are very well, and hadiths help understand as well.

But "too mysterious" for me to "explain at the moment" with "my understanding" is valid so long as the concept doesn't really prove the case against God.

For example, I believe trinity is a contradiction, and to accept as a mystery doesn't make sense. You can't do away with what is logical proven wrong with "mystery".

However if you believe in God and know he exists, but can't explain everything he does, like Moses didn't understand Khidr actions, you can await till you figure out the explanation and it's better to be silent than to say you know without knowing.

That's different then your scenario which we know it would be wrong and evil for a Creator of a world in any possible world to do.