(August 17, 2018 at 11:21 am)Khemikal Wrote: I'm not saying you need euphemisms, Benny..I'm pointing out that you've employed one, either wittingly or unwittingly.  That you have made a euphemism for your noted discomfort the definition of an ideology...but that this euphemism does not accurately describe that ideology.  Further, that the employment of this euphemism is, in fact...a fully accurate expression of the very thing you've employed it against.  

My employment of this so-called euphemism is. . . a fully accurate expression of the PC left? *brain explodes*

Quote:Take a step back and see how this thread panned out.  For many, many pages you derided people who were telling you true things about a person who employed this euphemism in a manner similar to the way you do.   A person who's academic credentials, though irrelevant, and whose compatriotism in that limited area... emboldened you in your wrong headed certitude....caused you to sink your own personal credibility and credulity into a doomed argument.

I'm not particularly emboldened by Peterson. You've discussed almost every issue under the sun with me. Would you really characterize me as lacking in boldness when express or arguing my opinions? Do you really think I need the opinions of others in order to have the courage to make myself heard? I would be quite surprised if you really felt so.

Quote:You are doing this same thing with "the pc left".  In the process you are repeatedly falling into stereotypes of people you would not associate or identify yourself with.  
[quote]

I don't think so. Identity politics refers to demographic identity, not so much philosophical stances on things. Identity politics means that the STATE OF BEING white or black or gay or whatever is sufficient in order to draw conclusions, make arguments, or agree or disagree with positions based on the perceived state of the demographic as an entity.

And let me say that I'm 100% sure, crystal fucking clear, that the right-wing nutjobs are full of the same kind of thing, and that the actual practice of it has far graver consequence. I mean, the N-word itself is a pretty explicit imposition of a demographic identity without regard to the personal traits of a given individual, and I would say implies an immediate threat just in being spoken.

That being said, it is with the fart-sniffing left that I've had the most exposure, and it is my frustrations with them in particular that lead me to loathe identity politics.

(August 18, 2018 at 12:05 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(August 17, 2018 at 11:21 am)Khemikal Wrote: I'm not saying you need euphemisms, Benny..I'm pointing out that you've employed one, either wittingly or unwittingly.  That you have made a euphemism for your noted discomfort the definition of an ideology...but that this euphemism does not accurately describe that ideology.  Further, that the employment of this euphemism is, in fact...a fully accurate expression of the very thing you've employed it against.  

My employment of this so-called euphemism is. . . a fully accurate expression of the PC left?  *brain explodes*

It's a fully accurate expression of identity politics, Benny.  Tight little bundle of irony, and you know how much I appreciate irony.  

Quote:I'm not particularly emboldened by Peterson.  You've discussed almost every issue under the sun with me.  Would you really characterize me as lacking in boldness when express or arguing my opinions?  Do you really think I need the opinions of others in order to have the courage to make myself heard?  I would be quite surprised if you really felt so.

Do I need to quote all the silly shit you said about how peterson got it right and his detractors got it wrong and you could explain anything and..btw....I don't take personal checks.  Cash only. 

So yes, peterson emboldened you in this discussion.  peterson presented what you thought were examples of the thing you think the left is trying to do, turns out the examples weren't factually accurate, and neither are the things you think the left is trying to do.  

Quote:I don't think so. Identity politics refers to demographic identity, not so much philosophical stances on things. Identity politics means that the STATE OF BEING white or black or gay or whatever is sufficient in order to draw conclusions, make arguments, or agree or disagree with positions based on the perceived state of the demographic as an entity.

And let me say that I'm 100% sure, crystal fucking clear, that the right-wing nutjobs are full of the same kind of thing, and that the actual practice of it has far graver consequence. I mean, the N-word itself is a pretty explicit imposition of a demographic identity without regard to the personal traits of a given individual, and I would say implies an immediate threat just in being spoken.

That being said, it is with the fart-sniffing left that I've had the most exposure, and it is my frustrations with them in particular that lead me to loathe identity politics.

I know you don't think so..but just as with the peterson song and dance..you've been shown that you are.  I'm not telling you that both sides do it, that the right wing is also full of nut jobs..I'm telling you that your appraisal of the pc left is the -doing- of right wing nutjobs.  The example of peterson is a prime case.

I don't doubt that you've met fart sniffers who..to you, typify some leftist ideology.  It's your classification itself that's at issue, not that you've met assholes.  

Now...you've linked a definition of pc..and you've defined identity politics as you see it..but there's no obvious connection between the those two..whereas your categorization of the pc left is explicitly and undeniably identical to your definition of identity politics. I know, I know, you mentioned pages ago you weren't worried about being a hypocrite..but I'm not calling you a hypocrite here, because that would imply that the other guys are doing it to...which they aren't.

I think....that you've causually absorbed a fair amount of right wing propaganda that you weren't aware of -as- right wing propaganda, and that the combination of assholes and bad actors on, in and adjacent to the left has calcified the truth of that propaganda in your mind. Peterson and south park are examples just in this thread..I would be wholly surprised if there weren't more. As I keep saying, I can understand why you think what you do.

The left certainly has a bad actor problem, I don't think it can actually get rid of that problem while remaining true to core leftist ideology, yet more of the irony I appreciate. Most objection to PC left this or that is in the caveat "taken to extremes"...but..theres nothing in the definition of pc being taken to extremes in the example of a bad actor who..for example, wants to flip the tables and oppress the oppressors..or whatever the fuck they dream about. They're doing and advocating for something entirely different, not taking pc to an extreme...and that bad actors viewpoint is gaining precisely -zero- traction in law...despite constant howling to the contrary by rightwing fuckwads.

There will never be, for example..the confiscation of the white mans property to be allocated as reparations. If it did happen (it wont) that's not pc in action..it's something else entirely. There will never be any sort of criminalization or social shunning of white skin, that would not be pc..while there already is shunning of racism - which is pc....though I strongly doubt it will ever become illegal to -be- a racist...which would itself not be pc and immediately make racists a group of people to whom pc ideology would apply - as a discriminated or disadvantaged group. More irony.

-the above, btw, if I was looking for something objectionable in the left today, looking for a regressive left..would be what I'd point to, not the pc left.  

The pc left is working on a fundamentally decent and progressive idea.

The faction of the left that advocates for tolerance of the intolerant, well.....tolerance of the intolerent is not tolerance..it is spineless capitulation to the worst elements of our society and species.  The part of the left that feels that they must..out of ideological commitment or practical necessity..seek to include those for whom the narrative of white grievance is not a gripe about how they feel cast as villains but a call to action in RAHOWA by any name or means..needs to be purged in a downright soviet fucking sense.  

Cousin Cletus is never going to pull the lever for the left..unless that lever is attached to a guillotine. They should stop courting his vote, and recognize that their ideology is fundamentally incapable of dealing with or including people like him. Not because he's white, or male...but because he's a terrible fucking person with no interest in anything they want to accomplish.

Or, you know..they can keep drifting rightward in order to capture something they have no chance of holding..on the insistence of people who are using that demographic as bait to eat the left from within.

(August 18, 2018 at 10:20 am)Khemikal Wrote: I know you don't think so..but just as with the peterson song and dance..you've been shown that you are.  I'm not telling you that both sides do it, that the right wing is also full of nut jobs..I'm telling you that your appraisal of the pc left is the -doing- of right wing nutjobs.  The example of peterson is a prime case.

I don't doubt that you've met fart sniffers who..to you, typify some leftist ideology.  It's your classification itself that's at issue, not that you've met assholes.  

Now...you've linked a definition of pc..and you've defined identity politics as you see it..but there's no obvious connection between the those two..whereas your categorization of the pc left is explicitly and undeniably identical to your definition of identity politics.  I know, I know, you mentioned pages ago you weren't worried about being a hypocrite..but I'm not calling you a hypocrite here, because that would imply that the other guys are doing it to...which they aren't.

I'm telling you that I arrived at my position on the PC left before I'd ever heard the term "PC left." You've done this before, and often-- pretended you think I'm a swell guy, but I've fallen prey to the persuasions of the (right-wing / religious "woo" / fill-in-the-blank). Fuck off with that. I've been pretty clear in expressing why I dislike this particular political ideology, and why I feel I've come by it honestly. The only thing that's new is that I hadn't heard the expression "identity politics" before I heard Peterson use it. But since that term, and its definition, accords fine with what I already thought, then what of it?

Identity politics is politics around demographics groups, specifically about maintaining the rights of those groups. This is, exactly, the definition of PC. PC of the left, at least as it stands today, is identity politics around perceived minority demographics-- for example, natives or transgender people-- as opposed to the majority-- say white people, or men.

I do not doubt that there is a sincere and noble interest at the root of the PC left-- certainly, helping people who lack the political clout to stand up for themselves must be considered a great good. However, when the demographic view of humanity is insistently and repeatedly brought down to the individual level, then this spawns great unfairness.

You revealed this view of the PC left perfectly well in this thread. I was telling you about the individual conflicts which I'd had, in which case I was unfairly accused of being on the wrong side of identity demographics, and which pissed me off because in a 1:1 argument, in those moments, only an insane person could think that I was anything but all kinds of right, on every level. You eventually just said those people are assholes, and they don't represent the PC left. But your FIRST response, the response conditioned in you by the influences on YOUR world view which you've been all too willing to swallow whole-sale without considering their real-life consequences was this: wwwahhhhhh, cry me a river, it's so hard being a white man.

Now, I've already pointed this out. I consider you overall more thoughtful and intelligent than the average Joe I might meet. Therefore, if your conditioned world view leads you to instinctively respond in such a dismissive way, then where am I to think this comes from? While you deny it due to the No True Scotsman rule, your first response was to do exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what the PC left as I see it do: ignore the individual, and favor the member of the demographic group which has the PC left stamp of approval.

That, exactly, is identity politics. And that's why you're wrong to hold them-- because individuality matters infinitely more than group identity, but you're too lazy to consider the merits of individual cases-- at least at first.

The irony is that "demographic identity" is pretty much part and parcel with stereotyping. You stereotyped me as a privileged member of society for no other reason than the color of my skin. How unjust and intellectually lazy that is-- since even among your millions of close personal black friends, you'd not find that many who grew up as I grew up.

(August 18, 2018 at 5:00 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I'm telling you that I arrived at my position on the PC left before I'd ever heard the term "PC left."  You've done this before, and often-- pretended you think I'm a swell guy, but I've fallen prey to the persuasions of the (right-wing / religious "woo" / fill-in-the-blank).  Fuck off with that.  I've been pretty clear in expressing why I dislike this particular political ideology, and why I feel I've come by it honestly.  The only thing that's new is that I hadn't heard the expression "identity politics" before I heard Peterson use it.  But since that term, and its definition, accords fine with what I already thought, then what of it?

The propaganda campaign began long before the term pc ever stuck..so I'm neither surprised by this nor have I any reason to doubt it. You aren't the first or only person to have ever swallowed that koolaid.

Quote:Identity politics is politics around demographics groups, specifically about maintaining the rights of those groups.  This is, exactly, the definition of PC.  PC of the left, at least as it stands today, is identity politics around perceived minority demographics-- for example, natives or transgender people-- as opposed to the majority-- say white people, or men.

No, that's not the definition of pc, you linked a definition of pc before.  

Quote:I do not doubt that there is a sincere and noble interest at the root of the PC left-- certainly, helping people who lack the political clout to stand up for themselves must be considered a great good.  However, when the demographic view of humanity is insistently and repeatedly brought down to the individual level, then this spawns great unfairness.

Except that you cant present an example of that actually happening any more than peterson could, and even -as- you believed that peterson was describing a real example.  Informed of the fact that he wasn't, you wheedled and maintained that it was a stretch..but it's not even a stretch.  It's completely and utterly fictional. 

No amount of not calling black people niggers leads to unfairness in society..period. Agreed? No amount of refusing to engage in further discrimination of already or previously discriminated against groups leads to unfairness in society, agreed? No amount of refusing to re-disenfranchise historically disenfranchised peoples leads to unfairness in society, agreed?

Quote:You revealed this view of the PC left perfectly well in this thread.  I was telling you about the individual conflicts which I'd had, in which case I was unfairly accused of being on the wrong side of identity demographics, and which pissed me off because in a 1:1 argument, in those moments, only an insane person could think that I was anything but all kinds of right, on every level.  You eventually just said those people are assholes, and they don't represent the PC left.  But your FIRST response, the response conditioned in you by the influences on YOUR world view which you've been all too willing to swallow whole-sale without considering their real-life consequences was this: wwwahhhhhh, cry me a river, it's so hard being a white man.

-and you're still crying me a river, whitey.  Toughen up, bucko, and sort yourself out.

Quote:Now, I've already pointed this out.  I consider you overall more thoughtful and intelligent than the average Joe I might meet.  Therefore, if your conditioned world view leads you to instinctively respond in such a dismissive way, then where am I to think this comes from?  While you deny it due to the No True Scotsman rule, your first response was to do exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what the PC left as I see it do: ignore the individual, and favor the member of the demographic group which has the PC left stamp of approval.

It's not instinctive, lol..it's intentional.  I'm teasing you.  I'm teasing you.... for reading the script of alt right racist dirtbags, not knowing that you are reading the script of racist dirtbags.  I'm from the racist deep south..member?  That's what my conditioned worldview is, lol.  I know that white grievance is bullshit, and I know where the narrative comes from....even if you don't.  

Quote:That, exactly, is identity politics.  And that's why you're wrong to hold them-- because individuality matters infinitely more than group identity, but you're too lazy to consider the merits of individual cases-- at least at first.

For fucks sake Benny.........lol.....

Quote:The irony is that "demographic identity" is pretty much part and parcel with stereotyping.  You stereotyped me as a privileged member of society for no other reason than the color of my skin.  How unjust and intellectually lazy that is-- since even among your millions of close personal black friends, you'd not find that many who grew up as I grew up.

Yes, yes, Im pc lefting you and holding you down for being a white man.  You poor victim you.

(I don't actually have black friends, thin on the ground here in rural ky... you didn't catch that I was riffing on you..again, for fielding the "I have black friends" trope as a defense of animus no one accused you of possessing..I take it?)

 

It couldn't possibly be the case that I'm giving you shit for regurgitating the common propaganda and complaints of the racists with which I am intimately familiar, among which I grew up, by whom I was raised, in whose society I freely walk as an assumed member.

It couldn't be the case because you aren't one of those people, and how could you be aping those people, and you're entirely free of the pervasive influence of constant agitprop, and you don't even watch the channels or listen to the pundits or enjoy the shows that...oh.....wait...........yes you do. You've demonstrated that over and over again in this very thread. Bumbling from one line to the next not knowing how often you say things that have become the punchlines of jokes about racists the world over...apparently.



I only get into these convos with you..because I know you aren't a filthy bigoted piece of shit. I genuinely believe that you're entirely unaware of yourself in this particular. If any of the usual suspects had posted any of the screeds you have..it would have become a game of laugh and point at the racist long...loooong...ago. I'd have written you off, like I have so many of the trumpsters here.

For the umpteenth time: I don't think you're one of Them™...but I do know that you've been sipping from their cup. You did spend a bunch of pages trying..and failing, to rehabilitate Beet-root-son, after all. There's a reason that google's algorithm will send you down the alt right rabbit hole from his videos.

Are you entirely incapable of entertaining that possibility, or acknowledging this reality?

(August 18, 2018 at 5:25 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Except that you cant present an example of that actually happening any more than peterson could, and even -as- you believed that peterson was describing a real example.  Informed of the fact that he wasn't, you wheedled and maintained that it was a stretch..but it's not even a stretch.  It's completely and utterly fictional. 

lol

I can give specific examples of these ideas being used to manipulate, and have. I could give more, but you'd keep trotting out the No True Scotsman argument. Oh THOSE aren't the real PC left. . .

Quote:No amount of not calling black people niggers leads to unfairness in society..period.  Agreed?  No amount of refusing to engage in further discrimination of already or previously discriminated against groups leads to unfairness in society, agreed? No amount of refusing to re-disenfranchise historically disenfranchised peoples leads to unfairness in society, agreed?  

Quote:Too. . . many. . . double. . . negatives. . . can. . . not. . . compute.

If I see white people discriminating against black people on the basis of their being black, I will strongly disagree with them, and I believe I will likely have the courage to stand up and say so. And it's for much the same reason-- group membership shouldn't automatically win or lose an argument, or put one party in the right or wrong. It certainly should decide who will be called out of a group and attacked.

I'm not against black people, gay, or anything else. I'm against stereotyping, and then pretending that it's a noble thing.

-and you're still crying me a river, whitey.  Toughen up, bucko, and sort yourself out.

Your insistence on racist politics is duly noted, and disregarded.

Quote:It couldn't possibly be the case that I'm giving you shit for regurgitating the common propaganda and complaints of the racists with which I am intimately familiar, among which I grew up, by whom I was raised, in whose society I freely walk as an assumed member.

And it couldn't possibly be that morally and intellectually weak people, seeing that if they play the victim card, won't immediately seize on it as an easy way out of personal responsibility.

I preferentially hired black people last year-- not because I'm a champion of black people, but because I'd worked with a couple white kids who were so fucking enfranchised and selfish that I thought I couldn't do worse. Then I had it even worse. And it was very clear that the reason it was worse is because two of them in particular had realized that if they pulled the race card over every little thing, I was going to have to back down.

Where did they get that idea, pray tell? From thin air? From a study of sound political philosophy? No-- they were perfectly aware of the memes spun out of the PC left, and they were perfectly willing to use them for their own benefit. And unlike you, I believe this to be typical, rather than atypical. I believe that most people these days, in particular young people, have no sense of discipline or work ethic, and would rather spew PC nonsense than roll up their sleeves and do a decent day's work.

And don't think I'm just racist, though I suspect that probably quite a lot of black people are likely using their card to maximum benefit. I hate equally well the white kid with the dreadlocks, with the $200 hemp satchel and the $2000 Apple laptop, who uses his allowance to buy $10 Starbucks coffees blogging all day about how feminist he is, because he pulls the same kind of shit: "I wasn't immediately offered a high paying job for my BA in fart-sniffing. . . it must be because Wall Street is afraid of my individuality and there's a conspiracy to keep me dowwwwn!" He's found a way, despite probably coming from a rich white suburb, to identify himself in demographic terms, too-- and to ignore the very obvious fact that his degree in neo-post-modernist finger painting techniques was never going to provide him with a chance to pay off his student debt.

(August 18, 2018 at 7:31 pm)bennyboy Wrote: And it couldn't possibly be that morally and intellectually weak people, seeing that if they play the victim card, won't immediately seize on it as an easy way out of personal responsibility.

It certainly can be that.  This isn't a mutually exclusive proposition to your having ingested alt right politics without you having known it.

But hey.....what would I know. 

Quote:I preferentially hired black people last year-- not because I'm a champion of black people, but because I'd worked with a couple white kids who were so fucking enfranchised and selfish that I thought I could do worse.  Then I had it even worse.  And it was very clear that the reason it was worse is because two of them in particular had realized that if they pulled the race card over every little thing, I was going to have to back down.

Virtue signal to someone else, you pc leftist cuck. 

Keep pwning dem libs.

(August 18, 2018 at 7:34 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(August 18, 2018 at 7:31 pm)bennyboy Wrote: And it couldn't possibly be that morally and intellectually weak people, seeing that if they play the victim card, won't immediately seize on it as an easy way out of personal responsibility.

It certainly can be that.  This isn't a mutually exclusive proposition to your having ingested alt right politics without you having known it.

But hey.....what would I know. 

I'm from Canada. My family were all democrat, as were almost everyone in my town (a working town at that time). I went to university in UBC in Vancouver, a super-left school in a super-left city.

I also hold almost exclusively left values.

I'm just not a big fan of thought police, or of stereotypes which pretend to protect but actually enable. And I'm definitely against having a fart-sniffing moral majority use social pressure to stifle expression of any idea that's anathema to them. The PC Left are NOT fans of free speech, because free speech sometimes causes discomfort-- and not even to the right people.

The free speech grift continues.