Interesting world view in that ellipsis, fr0d0.

(September 18, 2011 at 5:55 pm)Epimethean Wrote: Interesting world view in that ellipsis, fr0d0.

Actually, that was one of the more coherent, insightful and honest apologetic arguments I've ever heard.

LOL. OK. Much like saying that Castro is one of the most successful Communists.

(September 18, 2011 at 11:13 pm)Epimethean Wrote: LOL. OK. Much like saying that Castro is one of the most successful Communists.

LOL, exactly.

Premise one is false. It does not follow that if something exists it can be discovered. Specifically, God, being in total control, and even if He wasn't totally inaccessible to our instrumentation, could easily frustrate any attempt we made at finding Him. God could only be found if He wished to be found. Which is why trying to prove God with science is irrational, since only He could give the evidence that He really exists.

(September 18, 2011 at 2:31 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: If something really exists, it can be discovered.

If it can be discovered, it can be studied.

If it can be studied, it can be understood.

If it can be understood, it can be explained.

If it can be explained, it's part of the natural universe.

Ergo, "supernatural" that exists is natural.

I love it when we get into the story of the great Spaceghost who created us, made all the good things, but who cannot be blamed for the bad things and who cannot be found to be held accountable for them even if we wanted to find him. People believe this shit?

Utter rubbish.

(September 18, 2011 at 11:33 pm)lucent Wrote: Premise one is false. It does not follow that if something exists it can be discovered. Specifically, God, being in total control, and even if He wasn't totally inaccessible to our instrumentation, could easily frustrate any attempt we made at finding Him. God could only be found if He wished to be found. Which is why trying to prove God is irrational, so only He could give the evidence that He really exists.

When did your god become so shy? He once gave a public address to the nation of Judea in Judges chapter 1. Jesus said that those of faith should be able to heal the sick and cast out demons (Mark 16:17-18). He once routinely spoke to his prophets face to face according to Exodus 33:11. Throughout the OT, we see Yahweh speaking directly to his prophets. In the NT, he hardly abandoned the practice, speaking as a booming voice to all who could hear at the baptism of Jesus (Mark 1:11, Matt 3:17, Luke 3:22). The Book of Acts is filled with all manner of supernatural events, from angelic intervention to Paul working divinely channeled magic.

I could cite many other passages and examples of overt communication from Yahweh in the OT and new, as well as many supernatural events. One can barely turn a page in the Bible without reading some account of supernatural disturbance.

Why is it, if these stories are true, that I look about now and see a natural universe? When did your god become so shy?

---

Sorry, in my earlier post I got side tracked by a topic that always interested me since I read the Bible cover to cover and couldn't help notice the stark contrast between the world that book depicted and the one I always experienced.

Getting back to my point, yes a specific being omniscent enough could avoid detection. That wasn't my point. My point was that if the supernatural were real, we could study it, understand its properties and classify it as part of the natural universe.

For example, let's say ghosts really are real. Then it might be possible to study them and their properties like we study animals in the wild. The movie "Ghostbusters" with all their gadgets might be created in reality to detect spiritual disturbances.

If God turns out to be real, we could understand this being if only we had sufficient knowledge. God might prevent us from acquiring the knowledge but that wouldn't change that the knowledge would still be out there to be discovered or hidden away by your shy deity.

Now a real life example of supernatural that comes to be classified as natural: the placebo effect.

It sounds mystical at first blush. How you think and your emotional state can effect your ability to recover from some illnesses? It comes across as woo, the kind of thing you might hear from New Agers. But it is a real and observed effect. Medical science is now studying it closer to try to understand it better. What sounds like supernatural comes to be classified as part of our understanding of the natural universe. All it takes is more knowledge and a willingness to discover the truth.

As a deist, I believe that as we come closer to understanding our universe, we come closer to understanding God. If our knowledge were limitless, we could understand the nature, properties and limitations of God. Even God would be part of the natural universe.

Shy? You've got over 2 billion people in this world who profess a faith in Jesus Christ. I wouldn't say He is keeping Himself a secret. As far as open demonstrations of power, Jesus said that the last sign that would be given to the world until the very end would be His resurrection from the dead. There are many signs, though. What you have today is many people coming to the faith by dreams, visions and miracles, in countries all over the world. God isn't hiding..He told us what it would take to know Him..it is literally true that you can't know God unless you know His Son.

As far as trying to put God in a bottle..God exists outside the Universe, in an eternal realm. There is no way to get from here to there unless God takes you there. "Ghosts", and all of those different spirit manifestations are demons. Satan doesn't want the world to know he exists because it is much easier for him to work that way. He is actively evading detection. So, in either case, the supernatural realm is inaccessible by normal means.

Now you say you believe in God, so why would we have to guess about it? What is the reason God won't instruct you?

(September 18, 2011 at 11:47 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(September 18, 2011 at 11:33 pm)lucent Wrote: Premise one is false. It does not follow that if something exists it can be discovered. Specifically, God, being in total control, and even if He wasn't totally inaccessible to our instrumentation, could easily frustrate any attempt we made at finding Him. God could only be found if He wished to be found. Which is why trying to prove God is irrational, so only He could give the evidence that He really exists.

When did your god become so shy? He once gave a public address to the nation of Judea in Judges chapter 1. Jesus said that those of faith should be able to heal the sick and cast out demons (Mark 16:17-18). He once routinely spoke to his prophets face to face according to Exodus 33:11. Throughout the OT, we see Yahweh speaking directly to his prophets. In the NT, he hardly abandoned the practice, speaking as a booming voice to all who could hear at the baptism of Jesus (Mark 1:11, Matt 3:17, Luke 3:22). The Book of Acts is filled with all manner of supernatural events, from angelic intervention to Paul working divinely channeled magic.

I could cite many other passages and examples of overt communication from Yahweh in the OT and new, as well as many supernatural events. One can barely turn a page in the Bible without reading some account of supernatural disturbance.

Why is it, if these stories are true, that I look about now and see a natural universe? When did your god become so shy?

---

Sorry, in my earlier post I got side tracked by a topic that always interested me since I read the Bible cover to cover and couldn't help notice the stark contrast between the world that book depicted and the one I always experienced.

Getting back to my point, yes a specific being omniscent enough could avoid detection. That wasn't my point. My point was that if the supernatural were real, we could study it, understand its properties and classify it as part of the natural universe.

For example, let's say ghosts really are real. Then it might be possible to study them and their properties like we study animals in the wild. The movie "Ghostbusters" with all their gadgets might be created in reality to detect spiritual disturbances.

If God turns out to be real, we could understand this being if only we had sufficient knowledge. God might prevent us from acquiring the knowledge but that wouldn't change that the knowledge would still be out there to be discovered or hidden away by your shy deity.

Now a real life example of supernatural that comes to be classified as natural: the placebo effect.

It sounds mystical at first blush. How you think and your emotional state can effect your ability to recover from some illnesses? It comes across as woo, the kind of thing you might hear from New Agers. But it is a real and observed effect. Medical science is now studying it closer to try to understand it better. What sounds like supernatural comes to be classified as part of our understanding of the natural universe. All it takes is more knowledge and a willingness to discover the truth.

As a deist, I believe that as we come closer to understanding our universe, we come closer to understanding God. If our knowledge were limitless, we could understand the nature, properties and limitations of God. Even God would be part of the natural universe.

(September 19, 2011 at 12:39 am)lucent Wrote: Shy? You've got over 2 billion people in this world who profess a faith in Jesus Christ. I wouldn't say He is keeping Himself a secret.

So fucking what! More people believing something doesn't make it accurate or valid. That's not an answer, that's a cop out.

Quote:As far as open demonstrations of power, Jesus said that the last sign that would be given to the world until the very end would be His resurrection from the dead. There are many signs, though. What you have today is many people coming to the faith by dreams, visions and miracles, in countries all over the world. God isn't hiding..He told us what it would take to know Him..it is literally true that you can't know God unless you know His Son.

Dreams, visions, miracles. How nice. Science, which is based on objective reasoning, logic, facts, physics, and reality says all of that means absolutely nothing. Imaginations running wild, influenced by nothing more substantial than the power of suggestion.

Literally true? Prove it. Prove it. Prove it.

Good luck. Pray really hard and I am sure your Jesus friend will show you how to prove it conclusively. You know him so well, and all.

Quote:As far as trying to put God in a bottle..God exists outside the Universe, in an eternal realm.

We bottle shit like soda, beer, and dish washing liquid. Real things..

Where is this eternal realm? Who has seen it? Where is the evidence?

Quote:There is no way to get from here to there unless God takes you there.
[/quotes]

How convenient.

[quote]
"Ghosts", and all of those different spirit manifestations are demons. Satan doesn't want the world to know he exists because it is much easier for him to work that way. He is actively evading detection. So, in either case, the supernatural realm is inaccessible by normal means.

Why doesn't God just smite Satan and all his demons? Is Satan that slick that he can cause so much evil all over the world and evade detection? If God is so powerful, why doesn't he do away with all that, much in the way that he created the trillions or more suns in our universe... ya know, with the wave of his hand? It's easier to destroy things than it is to make things, so why not destroy Satan and his crew, thereby removing evil from the world? Doesn't he love us?

I know that if a bully were messing with my kid, I would do something about it. I wouldn't just sit there filing my nails, letting the shit happen. If that's who the fuck your God is, then I don't want to know him. Next time you have one of your little chats with him, tell him I said to get fucking bent. I can't stand lazy, shitty parents.

So fucking what! More people believing something doesn't make it accurate or valid. That's not an answer, that's a cop out.

You need to read the question. My answer was a response to the declaration of DeistPaladin that God is shy. God obviously isn't very shy if at least 2 billion people know about Him.

Literally true? Prove it. Prove it. Prove it.

Good luck. Pray really hard and I am sure your Jesus friend will show you how to prove it conclusively. You know him so well, and all.

I could point you to much testimony, video or otherwise, delcaring these things to be true. Would you believe them? There is a point where skepticism is willfully blind. I would ask, if you're a true skeptic, why are you so certain that what I am saying isn't true?

We bottle shit like soda, beer, and dish washing liquid. Real things..

Where is this eternal realm? Who has seen it? Where is the evidence?

Again, I can point you to tesimony. Would you believe it?

Why doesn't God just smite Satan and all his demons? Is Satan that slick that he can cause so much evil all over the world and evade detection? If God is so powerful, why doesn't he do away with all that, much in the way that he created the trillions or more suns in our universe... ya know, with the wave of his hand? It's easier to destroy things than it is to make things, so why not destroy Satan and his crew, thereby removing evil from the world? Doesn't he love us?

I know that if a bully were messing with my kid, I would do something about it. I wouldn't just sit there filing my nails, letting the shit happen. If that's who the fuck your God is, then I don't want to know him. Next time you have one of your little chats with him, tell him I said to get fucking bent. I can't stand lazy, shitty parents.

In actuality, Satan, while he is the primary source of evil, doesn't actually cause anyone to do evil. Satan isn't responsible for the evil in the world, human beings are. Satan tempts, but people choose. He devises schemes, and people willfully execute them. God allows Satan to exist because He gives people the choice between good and evil. If they prefer sin and Satans wicked schemes, they will earn his reward, eternal punishment. If they prefer truth and the righteousness of God, they will receive Gods reward, eternal life. Everyone reaps what they sow. This isn't about evidence, it's about what kind of person you are. The evidence will come according to your moral choices in life. Even then God is merciful and is patient, desiring everyone to come to repentance. Only unrepentant sinners ultimately go to hell. It isn't because God wasn't plausible, it is because they preferred evil, and God rewarded them according to their choices.

The problem is sin. If you've ever lied, cheated or stolen anything, lusted, hated, blasphemed etc, you are guilty of it, and the penalty of sin is death. The good news is, Jesus already paid that price on the cross. And even if it was just you, He would have done it. He took our just punishment upon Himself so we could be declared not guilty. He tasted death for all so we could receive eternal life. God isn't sitting back. He took direct action in this world so everyone could be saved. It's just up to you how you respond to it.

(September 19, 2011 at 2:46 am)aleialoura Wrote: [quote='lucent' pid='180480' dateline='1316407143']
Shy? You've got over 2 billion people in this world who profess a faith in Jesus Christ. I wouldn't say He is keeping Himself a secret.

So fucking what! More people believing something doesn't make it accurate or valid. That's not an answer, that's a cop out.

Quote:As far as open demonstrations of power, Jesus said that the last sign that would be given to the world until the very end would be His resurrection from the dead. There are many signs, though. What you have today is many people coming to the faith by dreams, visions and miracles, in countries all over the world. God isn't hiding..He told us what it would take to know Him..it is literally true that you can't know God unless you know His Son.

Dreams, visions, miracles. How nice. Science, which is based on objective reasoning, logic, facts, physics, and reality says all of that means absolutely nothing. Imaginations running wild, influenced by nothing more substantial than the power of suggestion.

Literally true? Prove it. Prove it. Prove it.

Good luck. Pray really hard and I am sure your Jesus friend will show you how to prove it conclusively. You know him so well, and all.

Quote:As far as trying to put God in a bottle..God exists outside the Universe, in an eternal realm.

We bottle shit like soda, beer, and dish washing liquid. Real things..

Where is this eternal realm? Who has seen it? Where is the evidence?

Quote:There is no way to get from here to there unless God takes you there.
[/quotes]

How convenient.

[quote]
"Ghosts", and all of those different spirit manifestations are demons. Satan doesn't want the world to know he exists because it is much easier for him to work that way. He is actively evading detection. So, in either case, the supernatural realm is inaccessible by normal means.

Why doesn't God just smite Satan and all his demons? Is Satan that slick that he can cause so much evil all over the world and evade detection? If God is so powerful, why doesn't he do away with all that, much in the way that he created the trillions or more suns in our universe... ya know, with the wave of his hand? It's easier to destroy things than it is to make things, so why not destroy Satan and his crew, thereby removing evil from the world? Doesn't he love us?

I know that if a bully were messing with my kid, I would do something about it. I wouldn't just sit there filing my nails, letting the shit happen. If that's who the fuck your God is, then I don't want to know him. Next time you have one of your little chats with him, tell him I said to get fucking bent. I can't stand lazy, shitty parents.
[/quote]