(August 27, 2018 at 8:25 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(August 27, 2018 at 1:47 pm)PRJA93 Wrote: I don't know if I would call Jungian philosophy outdated, it's still very relevant in analytical psychology. Granted I have a very rudimentary understanding of psychology. I think Peterson's ideas on personal responsibility are a lot more straight-forward than most, "Stand up straight with your shoulders back... choose friends who want the best for you..." This in contrast with other self-help books that tout ideas like, "Follow your passion." All in all I could do without the mythology when it comes to Peterson's teachings, but I don't hate it either.

I don't really have strong feelings about the guy one way or the other. I wouldn't exactly call Peterson right-wing either. I don't think there's anything mind-blowing about the guy but I don't hate him either, as many seem to.

One thing's for sure, he's succeeded in getting people to talk about him. Can't hate the guy for that.

The thing about Jung is that the philosophy behind his psychology is so vague and impossible to test that, from a contemporary scientific perspective, it's kind of useless as psychology. I've taken several psych courses, and I can tell you firsthand that I've heard more from my creative writing teacher about Jung than the psychology teachers. Even Freud's theories were (at least on occasion) potentially falsifiable (there is, admittedly, some argument about that), even though most of the time, his theories don't hold up. Jung fails on even that front.

And on Jordan Peterson not being right-wing? Well, with his staunch opposition to referring to transpeople by their given pronouns (admittedly, understandable when one tries to figure out how to pronounce pronounds like "xir"), a very essentialist attitude towards gender, a strong belief in limiting sex to being within marriage, a big hard-on for religion as a controlling force (to the extent that he said one needs God to quit smoking, something he immediately back-tracked on when Matt Dillahunty pointed out how stupid that was, and turned into "well, having a religious experience on shrooms counts"), and an obsession with the excesses of Communism. Now, I have to admit, Trump's raised the bar pretty damn high (at least he's not as racist as an alarmingly high number of his fans are), but that still sounds pretty right wing to me.

Yea once again I'm no psychology expert so I can't really agree or disagree with what you're saying about Jung I can only go off of what I have learned first hand. And to be honest even if Jung's ideas were outdated it doesn't change my opinion on Peterson.

Also, Peterson actually said in one interview that he called trans students of his by their preferred pronouns if they came to him personally and asked him to do so. He was simply opposed to a specific bill which was an attempt to force people into using specific pronouns, which I agree is a bit of a slippery slope, even if the intentions behind the bill were good.

But yea you won't ever hear me defending Peterson's ideas on god. He is so vague about what god actually is and has never directly answered whether or not he literally believe in a supernatural being that created the universe. He always discusses the topic in these vague terms so you can never really pin down what he's saying. That being said I do wonder at times if he's a closet agnostic.

(August 27, 2018 at 4:47 pm)bennyboy Wrote: The mandate of the PC Left is to protect some demographic groups from others.  They've identified groups of victimhood, and those of oppressorship.  I wouldn't even say that overall this isn't well-intended.  But if you don't think that straight white rich Christian males aren't vilified as a group, then you might not think the sun is yellow, either.

As for points in which I "haven't been utterly and inescapably wrong," I'd say that 100% of my points meet that criterion.  You, obviously, disagree.  I think you are wrong to do so.

Tell me more about the stigmitization of whites.  

Quote:Well, I've never claimed white victimhood.  This is your straw man, and your attempt at guilt by association of ideas.  I say anything that even remotely sounds like I'm both (a) white; and (b) discontent with any interactions with black people (or gay people or whatever), and you are perfectly satisfied to generalize that specific complaint to some sort of over-arching complex.  But that is exactly the point, isn't it, that that's what the PC Left do?

I'm not commenting on you saying white sounding things...lol.  I've been fairly explicit about how this particular narrative was framed.  I've linked and discussed it's history, it's present, it's use, the manner in which it weaseled it's way into the mainstream, and the simple fact that otherwise unaligned people repeat it ad naus.  You're one of those people.  Now, you can pretend this thread doesn't exist..or that we've never had similar discussions..or that, somehow, I'm just making all this shit up and it's not a thing (kinda like white privilege, lol)......but how many times do people have to mistake you for a horse before you invest in a saddle?

You swallowed the koolaid.  Peterson is just one flavor...but I suspect that you've taken sips from more than just that one cup.  

Quote:My anxiety is about the effect of irresponsible and bad workers doing damage to my business-- not because they are black, or gay, or left-wing, but because they are using their identity demographics as an excuse not to do what is right-- according to the terms of a contract which they've signed.

-which has nothing to do with pc or sj issues, unless you're running a sweatshop and say casually racist things without realizing it. That is the only way for you to run afoul of the leftist extremists here, Benny. Waking up white in the morning doesn't exactly cut it.

Quote:That you keep trying to make this about demographics is YOUR thing, not mine.  The point of PC is this demographic view, and I have very consistently argued in favor of individual merit and responsibility as the metric that should matter.

It probably would surprise you to find that the "individual merit and responsibility" bit is a part of the common complex in relation to opposition to pc or sj issues, huh?   The whole reason for pc or sj anything to exist..is that people are -not- being treated based upon their individual merit or responsibility.

(August 27, 2018 at 10:28 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I'm not commenting on you saying white sounding things...lol.  I've been fairly explicit about how this particular narrative was framed.  I've linked and discussed it's history, it's present, it's use, the manner in which it weaseled it's way into the mainstream, and the simple fact that otherwise unaligned people repeat it ad naus.  You're one of those people.  Now, you can pretend this thread doesn't exist..or that we've never had similar discussions..or that, somehow, I'm just making all this shit up and it's not a thing (kinda like white privilege, lol)......but how many times do people have to mistake you for a horse before you invest in a saddle?  

You swallowed the koolaid.  Peterson is just one flavor...but I suspect that you've taken sips from more than just that one cup.  

That's quite the yarn you keep spinning out. I'm not particularly proud of being white, or threatened because I'm white. However, it's pretty obvious to anyone not actively avoiding seeing the obvious, that in the venn diagram that is the PC world view, there's a whole lot of negative focus put on a particular demographic.

Pretend it's not true, if you like. But that will take a pretty willful avoidance of truth.

Quote:-which has nothing to do with pc or sj issues, unless you're running a sweatshop and say casually racist things without realizing it.  That is the only way for you to run afoul of the leftist extremists here, Benny.  Waking up white in the morning doesn't exactly cut it.  

No. . . the way to run afoul of them is to attempt to enforce an agreement in good faith, and then not immediately back off when they pull the race card, the gay card, or whatever card they think will get them out of keeping their promises.

Quote:It probably would surprise you to find that the "individual merit and responsibility" bit is a part of the common complex in relation to opposition to pc or sj issues, huh?   The whole reason for pc or sj anything to exist..is that people are -not- being treated based upon their individual merit or responsibility.

Fight fire with fire, hey?

The problem is that since the ones who are really in charge are nowhere in sight, the rest of the demographic gets the blame by proxy. It's all founded on an asshole non-sequitur: almost all our society's villains are white, so each white person must accept responsibility for villainy. You can keep spinning your yarn about how my personal refusal to take shit from people to whom I've never done ill constitutes following an alt-right script. But no amount of spinning makes that true. It just means that you are more willing to shovel shit than to see your dogma criticized in any regard.

Did I own slaves? Underpay workers? Oppress anyone, any time? Nope. Never happened. Therefore, I do not consider that I have any moral debt to pay, or that I should be a good sport about taking bullshit, no matter what memes are being vomited out of someone's mouth.

(August 28, 2018 at 12:02 am)bennyboy Wrote: That's quite the yarn you keep spinning out.  I'm not particularly proud of being white, or threatened because I'm white.  However, it's pretty obvious to anyone not actively avoiding seeing the obvious, that in the venn diagram that is the PC world view, there's a whole lot of negative focus put on a particular demographic.


Pretend it's not true, if you like.  But that will take a pretty willful avoidance of truth.

Yeah, a dim view of racists, lol.

Quote:No. . . the way to run afoul of them is to attempt to enforce an agreement in good faith, and then not immediately back off when they pull the race card, the gay card, or whatever card they think will get them out of keeping their promises.

Sounds to me like you've conflated some asshole employee of yours with a political and social movement, again.

Quote:

Quote:It probably would surprise you to find that the "individual merit and responsibility" bit is a part of the common complex in relation to opposition to pc or sj issues, huh?   The whole reason for pc or sj anything to exist..is that people are -not- being treated based upon their individual merit or responsibility.

Fight fire with fire, hey?

No, Benny, you fuckin fruitball..lol...how many times does this have to be explained to you?  If you run a sweatshop and say casually racists things..and catch flak for it, those -are- your "individual merits".

Quote:The problem is that since the ones who are really in charge are nowhere in sight, the rest of the demographic gets the blame by proxy.  It's all founded on an asshole non-sequitur: almost all our society's villains are white, so each white person must accept responsibility for villainy.  You can keep spinning your yarn about how my personal refusal to take shit from people to whom I've never done ill constitutes following an alt-right script.  But no amount of spinning makes that true.  It just means that you are more willing to shovel shit than  to see your dogma criticized in any regard.

Tell me more about the stigmitization of whites.  

Quote:Did I own slaves?  Underpay workers?  Oppress anyone, any time?  Nope.  Never happened.  Therefore, I do not consider that I have any moral debt to pay, or that I should be a good sport about taking bullshit, no matter what memes are being vomited out of someone's mouth.

Tell me more about the denial of pride.

(August 28, 2018 at 6:14 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(August 28, 2018 at 12:02 am)bennyboy Wrote: That's quite the yarn you keep spinning out.  I'm not particularly proud of being white, or threatened because I'm white.  However, it's pretty obvious to anyone not actively avoiding seeing the obvious, that in the venn diagram that is the PC world view, there's a whole lot of negative focus put on a particular demographic.


Pretend it's not true, if you like.  But that will take a pretty willful avoidance of truth.

Yeah, a dim view of racists, lol.

Quote:No. . . the way to run afoul of them is to attempt to enforce an agreement in good faith, and then not immediately back off when they pull the race card, the gay card, or whatever card they think will get them out of keeping their promises.

Sounds to me like you've conflated some asshole employee of yours with a political and social movement, again.

Quote:Fight fire with fire, hey?

No, Benny, you fuckin fruitball..lol...how many times does this have to be explained to you?  If you run a sweatshop and say casually racists things..and catch flak for it, those -are- your "individual merits".

Quote:The problem is that since the ones who are really in charge are nowhere in sight, the rest of the demographic gets the blame by proxy.  It's all founded on an asshole non-sequitur: almost all our society's villains are white, so each white person must accept responsibility for villainy.  You can keep spinning your yarn about how my personal refusal to take shit from people to whom I've never done ill constitutes following an alt-right script.  But no amount of spinning makes that true.  It just means that you are more willing to shovel shit than  to see your dogma criticized in any regard.

Tell me more about the stigmitization of whites.  

Quote:Did I own slaves?  Underpay workers?  Oppress anyone, any time?  Nope.  Never happened.  Therefore, I do not consider that I have any moral debt to pay, or that I should be a good sport about taking bullshit, no matter what memes are being vomited out of someone's mouth.

Tell me more about the denial of pride.

Seriously it's like reading a white  grievance post on Stormforont.

No, No Tiz.  Can't possibly be, it's all just an enormous coincidence..informed by his life experiences.

(August 28, 2018 at 6:22 am)Khemikal Wrote: No, No Tiz.  Can't possibly be, it's all just an enormous coincidence..informed by his life experiences.

That happens perfectly fits the white grievance narrative of the Alt Right and their allies

I mean, some of that’s a rant, but I do agree that just being white doesn’t make you the ower of reparations, be they monetary, social or emotional. I’m just living my life without slaves or prejudice. That’s good enough.

But that's not there real grievance it one they trot out as a shield same as incels when they use male suicide rates or homelessness.

Yeah, but that doesn’t make it less true. Being white doesn’t make you responsible for historical grievances.