Quote:The notion that God is the ultimate good is only latent in the OT. In it the only thing that is clearly expressed is that God is Just and long-suffering. The NT brings in more explicit notions Mercy and the seemingly novel concept of the Divine Logos. As it developed, the Christian tradition incorporated Hellenistic ideas of ‘The Good’. The Scholastic merger of Neo-Platonism and Middle Eastern religion gave us demonstrations that first posit an Ultimate Good known from general revelation that is then recognized by Christians as the God know through special revelation. That’s my vast oversimplification but I believe generally accurate in a low-resolution way. So no, Christian doctrine does not start with God and attribute to Him all conceivable good properties; but rather, it starts with the concept of a transcendent Good and recognizes in God the full expression of that concept.

So drivel then

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Quote:Ok, thanks for answering lol. That was difficult.

difficult no a fruitless waste of time yes

(August 30, 2018 at 4:26 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(August 30, 2018 at 4:25 pm)polymath257 Wrote: I will follow what I find to be good and true. Under the conditions you laid out, that would mean I would follow God.

Too bad the conditions are nonsensical and this whole hypothetical is a massive waste of time .

Precisely. And if 6 was 9, then 12 would be 18.

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(August 30, 2018 at 4:28 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 30, 2018 at 4:25 pm)polymath257 Wrote: I will follow what I find to be good and true. Under the conditions you laid out, that would mean I would follow God.

But, I want to add, this would mean that the God of Christianity is NOT the God of your proposition.

Ok, thanks for answering lol. That was difficult.

For what it is worth, many of us believe God is that way. I didn't pull that idea out of nowhere. So yes, that is the God that myself and many other Christians believe in.

Then the delusion is very, very deep.

For those claiming that theistic beliefs mean a person is delusional, I assume you realize that 17% of people world wide are non religious. Do you really think 83% of the earth's population have delusional disorder? (plus whatever percentage would come from the non religious group). That is an astounding number of people with a pretty serious mental disorder. Maybe we are wrong for having a religion, and you are right for not. But to claim we are all mentally ill, all 83% of us, is unreasonable and illogical.

(August 30, 2018 at 4:55 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: For those claiming that theistic beliefs mean a person is delusional, I assume you realize that 17% of people world wide are non religious. Do you really think 83% of the earth's population have delusional disorder? (plus whatever percentage would come from the non religious group). That is an astounding number of people with a pretty serious mental disorder. Maybe we are wrong for having a religion, and you are right for not. But to claim we are all mentally ill, all 83% of us, is unreasonable and illogical.

Fortunately, the delusion is localized in most people to performing crazy rituals. It becomes a problem when they start to require others to adopt their delusions also.

Yes, I think our tendency to see faces in clouds and then attribute emotions to them is delusional. I certainly don't think that the majority of people on the Earth would choose an unpleasant truth to a pleasant falsehood if given a choice.

(August 30, 2018 at 4:55 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: For those claiming that theistic beliefs mean a person is delusional, I assume you realize that 17% of people world wide are non religious. Do you really think 83% of the earth's population have delusional disorder? (plus whatever percentage would come from the non religious group). That is an astounding number of people with a pretty serious mental disorder. Maybe we are wrong for having a religion, and you are right for not. But to claim we are all mentally ill, all 83% of us, is unreasonable and illogical.

You keep saying delusional as if it a disorder not all delusions are disorders or a mental and it's neither unreasonable and illogical to say that a large percentage(the number does not matter) of the world is delusional no matter how much hyperbole or ridicule you put to the idea .

100% of the people on the earth have some delusional experience(s), idea(s), or position(s).  It just so happens to be that the religious have a persistent delusion in common.

I would be surprised to find a religious person who wouldn't wish that their religion were true..if it weren't. Who wouldn't prefer that the universe be inhabited by their god. Who wouldn't prefer that the articles of their faith were true that the specific claims of their church were factual. We've heard as much expressed here a thousand times and a thousand ways. That if it weren't real, they would wish that it would be. That if it weren't real, life would lose all meaning. That if it weren't real, there would be no truth. That if it weren't real, there would be nothing..literally nothing. No love...for example........

On and on and on. Powerful wish-thinking, and horrible consequences informed by that wish thinking. That shit is positively downright no excuses delusional with a capital d.

(August 30, 2018 at 5:19 pm)Khemikal Wrote: 100% of the people on the earth have some delusional experience(s), idea(s), or position(s).  It just so happens to be that the religious have a persistent delusion in common.

Oh true everyone is to some degree delusional

(August 30, 2018 at 4:55 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: For those claiming that theistic beliefs mean a person is delusional, I assume you realize that 17% of people world wide are non religious. Do you really think 83% of the earth's population have delusional disorder? (plus whatever percentage would come from the non religious group). That is an astounding number of people with a pretty serious mental disorder. Maybe we are wrong for having a religion, and you are right for not. But to claim we are all mentally ill, all 83% of us, is unreasonable and illogical.

Yeah CL... the word delusion is connotatively linked to mental disorder, but check the definition...

Quote:de·lu·sion
dəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun

1. an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
   "the delusion of being watched"
   synonyms:
   misapprehension, misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction, misbelief; 
   fallacy, illusion, fantasy
   
   

misconception... misunderstanding... mistake... all synonyms. When separated from its typical association with mental disorder, one can see why an atheist would consider theism "delusional."

@ CL
Ok I'm trying here. Every answer I come up with feels dishonest. That's a long question, with a lot of parts, a lot of assumptions, and a lot of definitions hanging me up. You seem to be working with definitions of words like God, perfect, and love that I'll having a hard time moving past. I've been agonizing over how to answer for like half an hour, so please understand I'm doing my best.

If we were in a room face to face with a nice dinner followed by some good wine this could be a long conversation.

So instead of arguing over what words mean, the best honest answer I can give you is only if I rewrite the question a little so I can stop getting hung up.

Would I accept love from any being if I believed it was truly felt and honestly freely given? Yes.

Would I accept it if I sensed it was not really love, and not freely given? No. Been there done that.

Would I be able to accept that any being in the universe IS love? No. Love isn't a thing it's a concept (or group of concepts).


I hope you find this satisfactory. I really did try to give the best honest answers I could.

(August 30, 2018 at 5:26 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(August 30, 2018 at 4:55 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: For those claiming that theistic beliefs mean a person is delusional, I assume you realize that 17% of people world wide are non religious. Do you really think 83% of the earth's population have delusional disorder? (plus whatever percentage would come from the non religious group). That is an astounding number of people with a pretty serious mental disorder. Maybe we are wrong for having a religion, and you are right for not. But to claim we are all mentally ill, all 83% of us, is unreasonable and illogical.

Yeah CL... the word delusion is connotatively linked to mental disorder, but check the definition...

Quote:de·lu·sion
dəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun

1. an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
   "the delusion of being watched"
   synonyms:
   misapprehension, misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction, misbelief; 
   fallacy, illusion, fantasy
   
   

misconception... misunderstanding... mistake... all synonyms. When separated from its typical association with mental disorder, one can see why an atheist would consider theism "delusional."

https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio.../Delusions

Quote:Delusions
Definition
A delusion is an unshakable belief in something untrue. These irrational beliefs defy normal reasoning, and remain firm even when overwhelming proof is presented to dispute them. Delusions are often accompanied by hallucinations and/or feelings of paranoia, which act to strengthen confidence in the delusion. Delusions are distinct from culturally or religiously based beliefs that may be seen as untrue by outsiders.

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(August 30, 2018 at 5:27 pm)Aroura Wrote: @ CL
Ok I'm trying here. Every answer I come up with feels dishonest. That's a long question, with a lot of parts, a lot of assumptions, and a lot of definitions hanging me up. You seem to be working with definitions of words like God, perfect, and love that I'll having a hard time moving past. I've been agonizing over how to answer for like half an hour, so please understand I'm doing my best.

If we were in a room face to face with a nice dinner followed by some good wine this could be a long conversation.

So instead of arguing over what words mean, the best honest answer I can give you is only if I rewrite the question a little so I can stop getting hung up.

Would I accept love from any being if I believed it was truly felt and honestly freely given? Yes.

Would I accept it if I sensed it was not really love, and not freely given? No. Been there done that.

Would I be able to accept that any being in the universe IS love? No. Love isn't a thing it's a concept (or group of concepts).


I hope you find this satisfactory. I really did try to give the best honest answers I could.

Thank you Aurora.