(September 10, 2018 at 10:51 am)Khemikal Wrote: Benny, donate money or don't, but stop being a queen about it, and go read the links you've been given.

---

Here are just those links I've given you, all in one place, for convenience.

https://www.spencer.org/socialization-vi...al-targets
https://nplusonemag.com/issue-10/politic...an-nation/
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20832074
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670992/s...tionalists
http://prospect.org/article/conservative...-narrative
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arch...up/536850/
https://www.npr.org/2017/10/24/559604836...ed-against
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018...o-did.html
http://www.aei.org/publication/how-can-i...poor-kids/
https://www.unz.com/jthompson/ses-and-he...elligence/
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40063922?se...b_contents
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3270016/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4641149/
https://genepi.qimr.edu.au/contents/p/st..._10-16.pdf
http://www.geneticshumanagency.org/gha/a...elligence/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...018-1142-z
http://www.uam.es/personal_pdi/psicologi...we1999.pdf
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/p...1597cd37f5

I haven't taken any stance about white supremacists, so I'm not much interested in those articles.  White supremacy is a bad idea, and I have little interest in it.

As for the IQ links, I've read them, Khemikal, and have already said so.  If you are claiming that I'm lying about that, then say so.  I guess that's what you'd expect from a "slimy piece of shit," eh?  I have no problem discussing any of them, and there's even a chance that one of them might lead you to suggest an actual plan for changing anything at all.

The stuff about IQ is all in accord with what I've said about that issue.  As I said before, your use of 10% heritability in raging against the conspiracies of science are pretty clearly dishonest, since we were talking about income disparity.  What, pray tell, is the heritability of IQ at working age?  10%, is it?

But like I say, it doesn't matter.  I didn't say you had to be honest-- only that you had to properly cite your claim.  You clearly won't-- that's fine.  It means that either you don't know how to cite things, or that you aren't willing to.

Unless you say something interesting, or make an actual point that you will back up with specific supported facts, then I'm done for now.  If you want to make that citation after all, then PM me, and I'll send the money any time.  I know exactly where it would come from, and why you don't want to make it-- because it turns out you were just parroting things that I had already said, and you prefer not to reveal that.

Good luck with that.

(September 10, 2018 at 3:08 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I haven't taken any stance about white supremacists, so I'm not much interested in those articles.  White supremacy is a bad idea, and I have little interest in it.

That's a shame, because I think they might help you to identify those moments and narratives in our conversation (and probably your life outside the boards) that could cause a rational person to mistake you for a white supremacist.  

They might also help you to figure out precisely why a guy like peterson is on the alt-right internet pipeline.

Quote:As for the IQ links, I've read them, Khemikal, and have already said so.  If you are claiming that I'm lying about that, then say so.  I guess that's what you'd expect from a "slimy piece of shit," eh?  I have no problem discussing any of them, and there's even a chance that one of them might lead you to suggest an actual plan for changing anything at all.

The stuff about IQ is all in accord with what I've said about that issue.  As I said before, your use of 10% heritability in raging against the conspiracies of science are pretty clearly dishonest, since we were talking about income disparity.  What, pray tell, is the heritability of IQ at working age?  10%, is it?

But like I say, it doesn't matter.  I didn't say you had to be honest-- only that you had to properly cite your claim.  You clearly won't-- that's fine.  It means that either you don't know how to cite things, or that you aren't willing to.

Unless you say something interesting, or make an actual point that you will back up with specific supported facts, then I'm done for now.  If you want to make that citation after all, then PM me, and I'll send the money any time.  I know exactly where it would come from, and why you don't want to make it-- because it turns out you were just parroting things that I had already said, and you prefer not to reveal that.

Good luck with that.

Well, wonderful, then you already know which study is being cited in those links I gave you.  Though that makes the last few pages of your posts more than a little bit baffling.  Additionally, since you've read all of those, do you now have a more accurate picture of why scientific racism is a scam?  Why the notion of "race and intelligence" gets rightfully poo-pood not because of politics, but because it's fundamentally misinformed, and why studies on iq and income have to be controlled to zero out known effects?

Yeah, yeah. I know that you know that I know. . . so cite the source, and get the money sent.

I never had an inaccurate picture of scientific racism-- that would be you, since you cannot differentiate between racism and simple statistical facts. There are a lot of ways in which black people in the US differ from white people as a demographic: IQ, average income, % under poverty line, single parenthood, level of religious ideology, violent crime, time in prison, etc.

Talking about these issues isn't racist unless you intend to use the facts to justify either neglecting the problem or aggravating it. And it's not scientific racism at all, since it doesn't point to evolution or any other scientific field for validation of the neglect or aggravation.

In fact, in order to bring about equality, ALL these issues are going to have to be solved-- and refusing to consider them because you conflate statistical issues with "scientific racism" is just about the best possible way you could come up with to gurantee they never get solved.

Did white people ultimately create this situation? Certainly, and how could it be claimed otherwise? Africans didn't choose to get shackled and brought over on boats.

Okay, so let's grant that however you view the specifics on the ground, ultimately the problem goes back to white vs. black racism. Now what? Instead of puffing up your chest and shouting "Racism is baaaad. We shouldn' doooo it!" you're going to have to up your game. So far, my (horribly racist, alt-right, slimy piece-of-shit) views have generated real ideas:
-releasing prisoners, and making sure they have enough opportunities and incentives to keep them from returning. (You: "Are you calling black people LAZY, bruh!?")
-accepting that even if heritability is 80%, 20% is more than enough to justify investing in childhood programs.
-establishing health care and drug treatment programs

Your answer to any idea I've come up with so far is: "Yeah, but even if you do that. . . racism!" So what? You still have to try and actually do something. Do you not see the hypocrisy, here? I'm using stats you call racist in order to try and figure out how to apply positive change. You are using memes you consider PC to avoid having to do that.

I can't be anymore direct than I already have been.  Scientific racism has been used to destroy childhood investment programs here in the states.  To destroy healthcare here in the states.  To incarcerate people here in the states.

We had programs that were working. Obviously, those programs didn't actually prevent white supremacy from making a home out of the white house..precisely the opposite. They became the grist that the normalizing mill used to rationalize and support not only their existing prejudice, but to strengthen it's grip and effect on our institutions. They did this by rebranding white supremacy as a victimhood movement.

Their rights were being abrogated by the pc left. Was this true, no..but clearly it resonates..eh?
They were being discriminated against, reverse racism!
They were being stigmatized and denied their pride.
They were suffering a loss of self esteem. Poor dears.

The goal, obviously, being white elimination..but the destruction of western society is a good and thoroughly scrubbed standin for that.

All of this....is in the links......I gave you. I know, I know Boooooo-riiiing and you're not interested.....except it seems like you are. Not a little bit, alot, lol.

---

Now, as to your suggestions..as if we haven't discussed this before.  A plan to dump prisoners will cause a full on white separatist revolt (you think those motherfuckers are "economically anxious" now...lol?), and since the prison industry is an immensely profitable body farm, a real modern day plantation.. it's never going to happen.  Racism is a direct causal factor in this and emptying prisons will not solve that. They would, in the best of circumstances, simply overfill them again.

The reason that childhood investment programs makes sense has nothing to do with the scientific racism you've bullshitted me or yourself about..but because of the huge, known, environmental component in IQ testing and differences in acheivement.  Issues of biological inheritance can only be improved by selective breeding. You are discussing a social issue with a social cause and a social solution, as though it were a heritable trait....all in the context of a biological invalid concept of race.

The same is true of drug and healthcare programs.  They are environmental levers that have nothing to do with any support from scientific racism.

As yet another one of the links I gave you made clear.....the entire line you've swallowed and are now repeating about "simple statistical facts" and leftists somehow refusing to engage with them adds nothing and is either disingenuous or almost impossibly naive. There are many suggestions as to how we might remedy any of these issues, and again we did once have working programs...but even here your criticism fails to hit home, because combatting racial myths and white supremacist propaganda has to be a part of every single one of them. You're not going to get rid of disproportionate representation in prison populations or sentencing disparities, for example, unless you tackle the underlying racism of the people imposing them, unless you expose the inadequacies of whatever rationalizations a group of professional and well paid racist propagandists are feeding them. I'm sure we can agree there?

There is no room in that for making you feel more comfortable with the subject. If you find yourself saying the things that white supremacists say, and you might want to take a look at that victimhood narrative up above..again, that you feel uncomfortable and threatend by pc or sj is not a bug...it's a feature. Our level of comfort with racism and the neverending demand that we center anxious white males is a part of the problem, not a solution.

(September 10, 2018 at 6:08 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I can't be anymore direct than I already have been.  Scientific racism has been used to destroy childhood investment programs here in the states.  To destroy healthcare here in the states.  To incarcerate people here in the states.

We had programs that were working.  Obviously, those programs didn't actually prevent white supremacy from making a home out of the white house..precisely the opposite.   They became the grist that the normalizing mill used to rationalize and support not only their existing prejudice, but to strengthen it's grip and effect on our institutions.  They did this by rebranding white supremacy as a victimhood movement.

I'd think you'd want to isolate them, instead of throwing more people under their umbrella by force.

Quote:Now, as to your suggestions..as if we haven't discussed this before.  A plan to dump prisoners will cause a full on white separatist revolt (you think those motherfuckers are "economically anxious" now...lol?), and since the prison industry is an immensely profitable body farm, a real modern day plantation.. it's never going to happen.   Racism is a direct causal factor in this and emptying prisons will not solve that.  They would, in the best of circumstances, simply overfill them again.

Yeah, why risk having racists prevent real change, when you can just guarantee nothing improves by not trying? Seems legit.

Quote:The reason that childhood investment programs makes sense has nothing to do with the scientific racism you've bullshitted me or yourself about..but because of the huge, known, environmental component in IQ testing and differences in acheivement.  Issues of biological inheritance can only be improved by selective breeding.  You are discussing a social issue with a social cause and a social solution, as though it were a heritable trait....all in the context of a biological invalid concept of race.  

I've ever said that environment doesn't matter in children-- in young children, it's the main driving factor. It's in adulthood that it turns out that heritability is very high: advantages of tests taken in childhood largely fade in adulthood. But I've already said that doesn't matter-- even 20% is enough variance to make a difference in IQ. And not every advantage of learning is measured in IQ. Kids in programs might be learning how to use computers, and so on. And there's also the fact that being poor sucks, and that citizens should want other citizens' lives not to suck.

Quote:As yet another one of the links I gave you made clear.....the entire line you've swallowed and are now repeating about "simple statistical facts" and leftists somehow refusing to engage with them adds nothing and is either disingenuous or almost impossibly naive.  There are many suggestions as to how we might remedy any of these issues, and again we did once have working programs...but even here your criticism fails to hit home, because combatting racial myths and white supremacist propaganda has to be a part of every single one of them.  You're not going to get rid of disproportionate representation in prison populations or sentencing disparities, for example, unless you tackle the underlying racism of the people imposing them, unless you expose the inadequacies of whatever rationalizations a group of professional and well paid racist propagandists are feeding them.  I'm sure we can agree there?

The thing is that at least in this thread, you've very much treated them (swaying opinion and engaging in policy) as mutually exclusive. You've also, in my estimation, favored gratification of righteousness over finding common ground.

I cannot favor any ideological position which uses demonization and division as its modus operandi-- quite simply, I just don't think it will work. While I don't endorse white supremacy or bigotry, I've found that plenty of gains can be made even with them, if you can speak their language. Tell them America needs to ramp up production in order to fend off China, that we need all hands on deck to protect America's freedom. Tell them you're sick of seeing black kids selling drugs on the corner, and you'd rather have them in a school program, where someone can keep an eye on them. Tell them that putting black men in prison is creating a vacuum, and it's sucking in more immigrants than the border patrol can handle.

If you really want to make a point of it, tell them that "I knew a black guy once, and he saved my ass in Korea. Fucking truer American I never met, and if you say otherwise, we're going to have words, Bubba."

Quote:There is no room in that for making you feel more comfortable with the subject.  If you find yourself saying the things that white supremacists say, and you might want to take a look at that victimhood narrative up above..again, that you feel uncomfortable and threatend by pc or sj is not a bug...it's a feature.  Our level of comfort with racism and the neverending demand that we center anxious white males is a part of the problem, not a solution.

. . . and we're back to the yarn.

Have a point. Use facts. Develop policies. Take action.

Like. . . do anything but spend dozens of hours typing to a Canadian in an online forum about how unbearably racist he is, and how insecure in his whiteness.

(September 10, 2018 at 8:51 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 10, 2018 at 6:08 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I can't be anymore direct than I already have been.  Scientific racism has been used to destroy childhood investment programs here in the states.  To destroy healthcare here in the states.  To incarcerate people here in the states.

We had programs that were working.  Obviously, those programs didn't actually prevent white supremacy from making a home out of the white house..precisely the opposite.   They became the grist that the normalizing mill used to rationalize and support not only their existing prejudice, but to strengthen it's grip and effect on our institutions.  They did this by rebranding white supremacy as a victimhood movement.

I'd think you'd want to isolate them, instead of throwing more people under their umbrella by force.

Isolating millions of people isn't really an option.  Educating them is...though, as this thread has made perfectly clear....some people are too invested to accept that education. Isolating their narrative and exposing it, however..is doable. If it just so happens to be the case that some of those millions don't realize how effectively they've been conned (and it pretty much has to be..right?) and they really wouldn't wittingly associate themselves with those positions if they understood the factual basis (or lack thereof) for them....then showing people how to recognize white supremacist propaganda and Freeze Peach grift might be useful. You never know, teasing them about the idiocy of it all might even help for those people who don't really respond to being lectured.

But lets parse the hilarity, for a moment, in your suggestion that either pc or sj has made people white supremacists and white supremacist sympathizers. Don't you think that might have more to do with the normalizing propaganda of white supremacy..up to and including their elected reps who both manufactured and maintained their racial anxieties in order to gain control of our institutions, gut social programs, and feed the largess to the donater class - their owners?

Quote:Yeah, why risk having racists prevent real change, when you can just guarantee nothing improves by not trying?  Seems legit.

Do you realize how absurd you sound bitching and moaning about this?  For the final time, we had programs that were working.  We will again, hopefully.  People espousing identical positions and rhetoric to your own destroyed them.  I get that you don't identify with those people, and I get that you imagine yourself to be very much opposed to their ideology...but that being the case, you have to wonder how you ended up singing their favorite songs, eh? It would be a rather enormous coincidence....if the two things were wholly unrelated.

Quote:I've ever said that environment doesn't matter in children-- in young children, it's the main driving factor.  It's in adulthood that it turns out that heritability is very high: advantages of tests taken in childhood largely fade in adulthood.  But I've already said that doesn't matter-- even 20% is enough variance to make a difference in IQ.  And not every advantage of learning is measured in IQ.  Kids in programs might be learning how to use computers, and so on.  And there's also the fact that being poor sucks, and that citizens should want other citizens' lives not to suck.

Then we should probably take care not to validate the misinformation that helps to keep them poor and make their lives suck..and not let others do so without pushback and consequence....don't you think?  

Quote:The thing is that at least in this thread, you've very much treated them (swaying opinion and engaging in policy) as mutually exclusive.  You've also, in my estimation, favored gratification of righteousness over finding common ground.

I'm uninterested in finding a common ground with racists on this issue, and..frankly, I already know that there is none.    Just as I'm uninterested in humoring the idea that scientific racism is a collection of facts that you are defending from pc culture.  Because it isn't..and you aren't.  

Quote:I cannot favor any ideological position which uses demonization and division as its modus operandi-- quite simply, I just don't think it will work.  While I don't endorse white supremacy or bigotry, I've found that plenty of gains can be made even with them, if you can speak their language.  Tell them America needs to ramp up production in order to fend off China, that we need all hands on deck to protect America's freedom.  Tell them you're sick of seeing black kids selling drugs on the corner, and you'd rather have them in a school program, where someone can keep an eye on them.  Tell them that putting black men in prison is creating a vacuum, and it's sucking in more immigrants than the border patrol can handle.

Playing up to their bigotry is what lead us here - and that's the traitor caucuses job..not mine.  So..hard pass.  I'm going to keep telling them that they are not only wrong and unamerican...but also horrible dipshits.  Though I do love to borrow their language to watch them cry salty tears. Snowflakes really outta toughen up, bucko.

Quote:If you really want to make a point of it, tell them that "I knew a black guy once, and he saved my ass in Korea.  Fucking truer American I never met, and if you say otherwise, we're going to have words, Bubba."

Right, because threatening them with violence is somehow the better option, lol.  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for punching a nazi...but it helps to tell them why they're getting punched.   It's a goldmine for jokes, too, bonus.

Quote:. . . and we're back to the yarn.

Have a point.  Use facts.  Develop policies.  Take action.

Like. . . do anything but spend dozens of hours typing to a Canadian in an online forum about how unbearably racist he is, and how insecure in his whiteness.

You'll find all of the relevant facts for the point I'm making....in the links..you've been given.  I'm talking to a person who has absorbed and is repeating the narrative that caused white supremacy to be so normal again.  That shifted the overton window.  That put their POV in the white house. The phenomena isn't actually limited to the US, though the success of this narrative has been instructive for all sorts of nativist and ethnostate movements around the world. If you're one of those people referenced back at the beginning, then it might be useful to you. Then again.....

Think of it like an infectious disease. Just giving you a moments pause in spreading it is, ultimately, useful. I don't expect you to suddenly realize what you've been doing..or concede in this doomed complaint you've been making. I have given you the information you would require to shake it, though.

Still not seeing a plan there, buddy.

Other than to oppose ignorant bigotry wherever (and in whomever) it's found a home while adding my voice to supporting those programs that sought to end it and the people who advocate for them...you mean? Or, other than any of the things that my wife and I are doing IRL?

Sure, other than that, no plan.

Honestly, this complaint is even more batshit than the white victimization song and dance.

(September 10, 2018 at 9:08 pm)Khemikal Wrote: But lets parse the hilarity, for a moment, in your suggestion that either pc or sj has made people white supremacists and white supremacist sympathizers. Don't you think that might have more to do with the normalizing propaganda of white supremacy..up to and including their elected reps who both manufactured and maintained their racial anxieties in order to gain control of our institutions, gut social programs, and feed the largess to the donater class - their owners?

It could be a case of carrot and stick here; a vocal minority of left-wing activists make the rest look like total idiots, and then, people becoming disillusioned with the left come across white supremacists talking about how they're the real oppressed ones, and how the left is powerful enough to destroy their free speech and, lacking the sort of critical apparatus necessary to properly process it and think "they're talking shit. I may be losing faith in the left's power to actually effect the sort of change we need, but there's no way this is a viable alternative" like an intelligent person would, buy into it. It also helps if they give it to you with a sort of “salt of the earth” or “truth to power” message.

And, once again, here are two articles from Cracked about why this happens (explained in such a way the common man can understand it) and why it's proving so hard to actually
make headway in discussions like this:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-reasons-we...cists-win/
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-reasons-yo...re-racist/

That's certainly the case for the unintentional mules.  Though I wonder what offends them more....the idea that they're spouting racist claptrap, or that they were so effectively turned into mules.

I long ago got onboard the train when it comes to the ineffectiveness of the left...but it seems like a damned hard turn from there to an affirmation of white victimization and scientific racism. In my experience, it's nearly impossible to crack the latter nut when you're dealing with someone utterly convinced that both of these ideas arose in their own minds out of a vacuum and/or they're so totally not doing it™. It's like watching someone contend that they wrote hamlet..pulling out a copy of hamlet for them to see...and then having them double down on their own claims to authorship.