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(September 10, 2011 at 9:01 am)StatCrux Wrote: If I were to meet an atheist who presents as a happy, confident, solvent individual, beautiful family, good friends etc (you get the picture) who went on to tell me the secret of his success in life was to lie, cheat, steal and stab others in the back at every opportunity, take no prisoners and give no quarter, be ruthless with strangers and only protect family and loved ones. How could I tell him that his behavior was "wrong" or "evil" using an atheistic worldview? "The tears of strangers are only water" would be an apt motto for this individual.
You couldn't, because atheism is not a code of morality. It is merely an absence of belief in a god or gods.
You might as well use Aunicornism(an absence of belief in unicorns) to achieve the objective.
If you used humanism though you might have a chance.
On the other hand, if you confronted a Mafia Don who was in the same situation but by his lights a good catholic how would you convince him that what he does is wrong using a christian worldview?
If you're not supposed to ride faster than your guardian angel can fly then mine had better get a bloody SR-71.
(September 20, 2011 at 2:05 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:
(September 20, 2011 at 2:50 am)Carnavon Wrote: I am no expert on animal bedhaviour so I would really be stupid to argue on this. The alternative to "evolve" would be that it has been "programmed. I think some of the old behaviourists called it "instinct". Is it not a possible alternative - whether you agree with it or not?
Programmed eh. Are you suggesting we are all part of a super computers game of 'the sims'?
This is certainly a more plausible argument than some ridiculous god thingy.
But overall evolution is the most plausible explanation for social behaviour as evolution has a good track record in this area.
There is no need for the god hypothesis.
I was referring to animal behaviour. From your point of view it may be that you see people as "evolved" animals, and so would possibly come to the conclusion that I was suggesting all the same principles apply to human behaviour.
From a Christian perspective, humans were made in God's image and thus not "evolved" animals. But we are getting away from the issue of why some things are right and some are wrong.
Now if we do not have a set standard, anything goes because we (being whoever markets his/her ideas the best/have the power to decide) consider it to be "right"/better.
If it is individual choice there is even less agreement of what is better/right.
I am sure that most people would agree that helping others would be good? Why would it be ?
We are also convinced (most of us) that to murder people would be wrong. Why would it be?
Is it a moral law that has been "written" into our hearts and arrived at apart from "logic" - a standard outside of ourselves?
CS Lewis wrote this in "Mere Christianity":Think of a country where where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the people who had been kjindest to him"
There is however a much bigger issue at stake here than arguing the basis for deciding what is right and what is wrong. If there is a "Law Giver" that set the standard and there is a day of judgement where those that transgressed the law is punished with eternal damnation, it becomes much more important than our little chats about morality and how we arrive at it.
An argument was raised that "I am not so bad". Most people would say they are kind of nice if you asked them. But answer the simple little questions:
Have you ever taken anything which does not belong to you? If we are honest, we will all say, yes we have. That makes us.....thieves.
Have you ever lied about something? Again the answer is yes. That would make us ......liars.
Have you ever hated somebody without a cause? Most of us will answer yes (racists/sexists etc). That, according to the Bible makes us....murderers.
Now if you have these few things on your rap sheet, it is unlikely that an earthly judge will look kindly on you, how much more a holy God?
That is the basis on which we know that all are guilty.
But the good news is, that Jesus took all our sins (transgression of the law) on Him and paid the price.
Being racist makes you a murderer? Yeah ok then. It's stupid shit like that which makes the Bible such a poor source of morality. People have the right to believe whatever they want. So if they believe black people are evil, or the holocaust never happened, or evolution is a myth, that's their right. This is what we mean when we accuse God of convicting people of thought crime. People here in the real world are judged on actions, not thoughts.
An earthly judge could not convict you of being sexist. Analogy falls down.
(September 22, 2011 at 4:37 am)ElDinero Wrote: Being racist makes you a murderer? Yeah ok then. It's stupid shit like that which makes the Bible such a poor source of morality. People have the right to believe whatever they want. So if they believe black people are evil, or the holocaust never happened, or evolution is a myth, that's their right. This is what we mean when we accuse God of convicting people of thought crime. People here in the real world are judged on actions, not thoughts.
An earthly judge could not convict you of being sexist. Analogy falls down.
You may have missed the point that the issue was murder and hate without cause (using the standard from the Bible, as I indicated) would be similar to murder. You regard only overt actions as being important and not your thoughts? So you can think all kind of dirty thoughts, indulging in pornography, read hate expressed towards any group and hating people who you choose to hate and be "pure"? This reflects on what many people regard as acceptable.
Yes, in the physical world actions is all we can judge on.
It would be impossible for you to judge whether God has access to your thoughts and He never, not once asks us to judge a person on his/her thoughts. In actual fact, we are asked not to judge (see commandments re treatment of even enemies).
But to put some futher perspective, these may be worthy of consideration:
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.
Mat 15:20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone."
Even Buddha said: "What we think, we become.”
You may also enjoy the funny quote from Oscar Wilde (in view of movies coming out of Hollywood) “America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.”
Enjoy your thoughts, but beware it may make you sick (medical fact) indicating that even if you believe that evolution is not the huge hoax it is, bad thoughts are detrimental to the survival of the specie.
(September 22, 2011 at 4:37 am)ElDinero Wrote: Being racist makes you a murderer? Yeah ok then. It's stupid shit like that which makes the Bible such a poor source of morality. People have the right to believe whatever they want. So if they believe black people are evil, or the holocaust never happened, or evolution is a myth, that's their right. This is what we mean when we accuse God of convicting people of thought crime. People here in the real world are judged on actions, not thoughts.
An earthly judge could not convict you of being sexist. Analogy falls down.
You may have missed the point that the issue was murder and hate without cause (using the standard from the Bible, as I indicated) would be similar to murder. You regard only overt actions as being important and not your thoughts? So you can think all kind of dirty thoughts, indulging in pornography, read hate expressed towards any group and hating people who you choose to hate and be "pure"? This reflects on what many people regard as acceptable.
Yes, in the physical world actions is all we can judge on.
It would be impossible for you to judge whether God has access to your thoughts and He never, not once asks us to judge a person on his/her thoughts. In actual fact, we are asked not to judge (see commandments re treatment of even enemies).
But to put some futher perspective, these may be worthy of consideration:
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.
Mat 15:20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone."
Even Buddha said: "What we think, we become.”
You may also enjoy the funny quote from Oscar Wilde (in view of movies coming out of Hollywood) “America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.”
Enjoy your thoughts, but beware it may make you sick (medical fact) indicating that even if you believe that evolution is not the huge hoax it is, bad thoughts are detrimental to the survival of the specie.
Oh groan Carnie...proselytising?? From YOU??
You really have no idea do you??
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(September 22, 2011 at 6:10 am)Carnavon Wrote: You may have missed the point that the issue was murder and hate without cause (using the standard from the Bible, as I indicated) would be similar to murder. You regard only overt actions as being important and not your thoughts? So you can think all kind of dirty thoughts, indulging in pornography, read hate expressed towards any group and hating people who you choose to hate and be "pure"? This reflects on what many people regard as acceptable.
I believe that thoughts may well inform your actions, but it is only actions that we have the right to punish. People are entitled to think and believe what they want, that is completely their right, even if I find those thoughts disgraceful. Like you have the right to believe evolution is a hoax even though it is backed up by mountains of evidence and agreed upon by 99% of biologists, many of whom are religious - what would be the value in this hoax? A practical joke? It's when people of your opinion then try to get creationism taught in schools that people need to oppose it, because that is the ACTION. But you can believe the Earth was created in seven days if you want. It's cognitive dissonance, but your right to do so.
As for the other bits, I don't really know what you mean by 'pure'. I understand that you are using the Bible's standard, I am telling you that it is really stupid to do that. Being racist is not murder. Murder is murder.
By the way I watch pornography regularly, and I regard myself as a perfectly well balanced person. What does porn have to do with anything?
September 22, 2011 at 6:59 am (This post was last modified: September 22, 2011 at 7:01 am by Zen Badger.)
(September 22, 2011 at 3:58 am)Carnavon Wrote: If there is a "Law Giver" that set the standard and there is a day of judgement where those that transgressed the law is punished with eternal damnation, it becomes much more important than our little chats about morality and how we arrive at it.
Since you have yet to prove the existance of this hypothetical lawgiver it is rather a moot point.
Quote:An argument was raised that "I am not so bad". Most people would say they are kind of nice if you asked them. But answer the simple little questions:
Have you ever taken anything which does not belong to you? If we are honest, we will all say, yes we have. That makes us.....thieves.
Have you ever lied about something? Again the answer is yes. That would make us ......liars.
Have you ever hated somebody without a cause? Most of us will answer yes (racists/sexists etc). That, according to the Bible makes us....murderers.
How the fuck do you arrive at this conclusion?!?!?!?
Quote:Now if you have these few things on your rap sheet, it is unlikely that an earthly judge will look kindly on you, how much more a holy God?
That is the basis on which we know that all are guilty.
But the good news is, that Jesus took all our sins (transgression of the law) on Him and paid the price.
So if we are all still sinners and liable to go to hell then JC's "sacrifice" was rather a waste of time wasn't it.
Not really a sacrifice though, afterall he knew that as the "son of god" he was going to heaven to sit on Yo-Yos right hand after his death.
Soooo where was the sacrifice?
[/quote]
If you're not supposed to ride faster than your guardian angel can fly then mine had better get a bloody SR-71.
(September 22, 2011 at 6:10 am)Carnavon Wrote: You may have missed the point that the issue was murder and hate without cause (using the standard from the Bible, as I indicated) would be similar to murder. You regard only overt actions as being important and not your thoughts? So you can think all kind of dirty thoughts, indulging in pornography, read hate expressed towards any group and hating people who you choose to hate and be "pure"? This reflects on what many people regard as acceptable.
I believe that thoughts may well inform your actions, but it is only actions that we have the right to punish. People are entitled to think and believe what they want, that is completely their right, even if I find those thoughts disgraceful. Like you have the right to believe evolution is a hoax even though it is backed up by mountains of evidence and agreed upon by 99% of biologists, many of whom are religious - what would be the value in this hoax? A practical joke? It's when people of your opinion then try to get creationism taught in schools that people need to oppose it, because that is the ACTION. But you can believe the Earth was created in seven days if you want. It's cognitive dissonance, but your right to do so.
As for the other bits, I don't really know what you mean by 'pure'. I understand that you are using the Bible's standard, I am telling you that it is really stupid to do that. Being racist is not murder. Murder is murder.
By the way I watch pornography regularly, and I regard myself as a perfectly well balanced person. What does porn have to do with anything?
You are right, actions are the only objective measure we have. Yes, we are each entitled to our own thoughts, whether disgraceful in the eyes of others or even ourselves. Why would it be disgraceful? Let me put it to you that God has put His law into your heart and you know when something is wrong.
Whether people agree with a certain point of view (e.g. evolution) does not make it true by implication. Evolution is accepted as “science” although there is so much evidence to the contrary that an opposing view should be heard. Of course we should allow evolution to be presented as a theory. To claim that only “fact” should be presented, would disqualify evolution as well because it rests on a number of assumptions that cannot be verified. Assumptions for instance on The Miller-Urey experiment was wrong, but my first question would actually be – where did these gasses and stuff come from in the first place? This is an interesting article on the issue “Firstly, consider the gaseous mixture. This was supposed to replicate the primeval atmosphere on the Earth. You will notice that there is an absence of oxygen and nitrogen which are the main elemental constituents of our present environment....etc”
Another: “When British evolutionist G.A. Kerkut published his classic book, The Implications of Evolution, he listed the seven nonprovable assumptions upon which evolution is based. At the top of that list was: “The first assumption is that non-living things gave rise to living material, i.e., spontaneous generation occurred” (1960, p. 6).”
What is also of some concern for me is that there seems to be some dishonesty involved with many of the so-called “finds” supporting evolution. One such an example would be in respect of for instance the Piltdown man :”It was determined that the teeth in the jawbone belonging to an orangutan, had been worn down artificially and that the "primitive" tools discovered with the fossils were simple imitations that had been sharpened with steel implements “
Talking about racism was against the background of hate for another person without good cause. Now you may not see that as very serious, but in the eyes of God it is a serious offence. We have become very “tolerant” of unbecoming behaviour.
The value of this hoax is quite evident – replacing God with a “scientific” solution. That is your position – yes? Everything started by itself, evolved by itself even though we do not see that (excluding micro- evolution within a specie and within parameters), the odds against it is astronomical and has never been experienced. Pornography: Why do you watch it? Honestly? Why not a good movie that inspire you to become a better person? Why not read a good book that make you realise the wonder of life and appreciate the gifts you have received? Uplifting stuff. Boring?
But we are possibly again missing the point that it is not about evolution. It is about God and his love for you,
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. /2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
September 22, 2011 at 8:41 am (This post was last modified: September 22, 2011 at 8:43 am by ElDinero.)
I've had my fill of you. You're a zombie. First you use Expelled to make a point, then you claim evolution is an attempt to replace God even though it is provably true that many theists believe the theory of evolution to be true, which is something I already pointed out and you have just glossed over to push your fucking crackpot conspiracy theory. Like I said, cognitive dissonance. British evolutionist G A Kerkut clearly doesn't understand evolutionary theory, since his assertion that 'The first assumption is that non-living things gave rise to living material, i.e., spontaneous generation occurred' is false, since evolution does not deal with the origins of life at all. Why don't you start checking your information before relying on it? You might look like a bit less of a dickhead. Furthermore, to pretend you are extremely concerned about evidence is really duplicitous of you, since if you applied the same apparent rigour to God as you are applying to evolution, you would come up empty handed.
Instead of just peddling out what apologists have told you to say, why don't you actually try thinking about evidence for things, maybe doing a little reading, attempting to think critically about the information you are getting?
(September 22, 2011 at 8:15 am)Carnavon Wrote: Pornography: Why do you watch it? Honestly? Why not a good movie that inspire you to become a better person? Why not read a good book that make you realise the wonder of life and appreciate the gifts you have received? Uplifting stuff. Boring?
As for this, it makes no sense. I read plenty of books, and watch plenty of movies. I also play two musical instruments, enjoy video games, play football and tennis, have several good friends, am reasonably intelligent, have a strong social life and a loving family. Pornography is for whacking off to. You want me knocking one out to Schindler's List or Citizen Kane? Besides, the only book you've ever read would be useless for pleasuring myself to, unless I was into rape/incest fantasies.
There's 24 hours in the day, and I can use them all differently.
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