(September 29, 2018 at 6:37 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: No. MK is but one theist. I like MK as a human being, but I disagree with his religious views, and I recognize that he is inexpert with logic. So what? That describes "Catholic me" when I was younger. Maybe MK's logic will improve the more people point out its flaws. Thus, in the end, good has been attained, whether any particular post from MK is good or not.

I guess I have to remind you that MK isn't the only theist in the world. Stop holding him up as some kind of exemplar. That's stupid. I mean, Khem, you are better than a tactic like that. (Meh. I guess even Bobby Fischer went Bxh2 sometimes, but still.)

A significant number of theists are very skilled with logic and can offer a lot of substance to debates. A significant number of theists (I'd estimate around 30%) are genuinely committed to peace and morality. In this world, THAT FUCKING COUNTS FOR SOMETHING!

But you aren't really thinking. You are sharp and perceptive, Khem, but your disdain for theists had led you to illogic.

It only takes one to incite genocide...and there have been many more than just the one. Say...some guy named Mo....or some asshole named Jesus? You've failed to show that my illogic is whats lead me to a disdain for theism..and by extension, theists.

OFC he's not the only theist in the world. I'm married to an evangelical christian, lol. We don't choose the people we love.

Mystic -is- an examplar of theistic belief. He believes every silly thing his theistic religion tells him. Those people are a problem, commonly. Do you disagree? It doesn't matter what other skills any given theist has..those aren't theist skills. Remove their theism, keep those skills.

What will we have lost?

Mystic, for his part..would just be the guy I used to know. I'm sure he has skills. Hell, he used to be cool...I didn't agree with him about gods then..either (he was a deist). Still, he never went full fucking terrorist recruit beforehand. That took strong belief in his theistic god.

Meanwhile, find me a single theist who offers substance to any debate about the existence of a god. I'll wait..but I won't hold my breath, lol.

(since it was all caps....lol, that some portion of people are committed to something you think is good means absolutely nothing to our discussion unless their theistic beliefs are the only way that a person could be committed to those things - frankly, theists so committed are often so committed in opposition to the strictures of their theist gods.)

(September 29, 2018 at 6:38 pm)Khemikal Wrote: It only takes one to incite genocide...

WRONG! It takes one crafty person. But unless there is a plethora of ignorant goons who will faithfully do the bidding of this crafty person, no genocide will transpire.

(September 29, 2018 at 6:49 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(September 29, 2018 at 6:38 pm)Khemikal Wrote: It only takes one to incite genocide...

WRONG! It takes one crafty person. But unless there is a plethora of ignorant goons who will faithfully do the bidding of this crafty person, no genocide will transpire.

A crafty person who doesn't believe in islam isn't high on the list of people who are going to engage or get others engaged in jihad - and it takes a plethora of ignorant -faithful- goons to join in that jihad. OFC there are plenty of reasons that people do fucked up shit..but theism is one of them. A -big- one. It adds nothing, and it's removal is entirely inconsequential...meanwhile.

You're shitting the bed.

No YOU'RE shitting the bed.

I've thought about this. If you are out to do genocide, any gaggle of goons will do. 

What is a "goon" anyway? Perhaps a good working definition of a goon is someone who just does what they are asked, gets paid, and then moves on without reflecting too much on what was done. Why does capitalism continue to work? Meh. There's a lot of goons out there.

You wanna talk about goons. I wanna talk about capitalism. Let's return to the original point: theists on the forum.

I say good. It's good that theists are here. To me, they are like mushrooms in the forest. By-and-large, they are just there. Some are eyesores. Others contribute to the overall aesthetic. But some of them... some of them will take you on a journey you never imagined (if you sit down and take a bite).

I feel like you thinking that the forum should be without theists is similar to someone thinking a forest should be without mushrooms. It's absurd on the face of it. An ecologist would come in and state that (if this was done) the forest would become lifeless. And, just because you are anti-mushroom, you would rather the forest be without mushrooms--even the beautiful ones, even the ones that can take you on journeys.

My suggesting Twatter to you was basically this: if you so despise the forest, why not walk on the plain?

(September 29, 2018 at 7:21 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: No YOU'RE shitting the bed.

I've thought about this. If you are out to do genocide, any gaggle of goons will do. 

Will they?  History begs to differ.

Quote:What is a "goon" anyway? Perhaps a good working definition of a goon is someone who just does what they are asked, gets paid, and then moves on without reflecting too much on what was done. Why does capitalism continue to work? Meh. There's a lot of goons out there.

You wanna talk about goons. I wanna talk about capitalism. Let's return to the original point: theists on the forum.

Sure...capitalists in some sense as motivated and certain as theists ( theres broad overlap..murrica!) can do horrible things.  The fact that other groups..ignoring their overlap, can do horrible things, isn't exactly a defense of the initial group that does horrible things.  

Quote:I say good. It's good that theists are here. To me, they are like mushrooms in the forest. By-and-large, they are just there. Some are eyesores. Others contribute to the overall aesthetic. But some of them... some of them will take you on a journey you never imagined (if you sit down and take a bite).

Right, and I say it's not actually good that theists are -anywhere-.....but if a few theists come here and end up distancing themselves from their theism as a consequence in a way that might preclude all of the stupid shit people do because of their theism..well..sure, that's a good thing.  

Notice..it's good only because it might produce a reduction in theistic motivation.  What journey is a theist supposed to be able to take me on that an atheist couldn't?

Quote:I feel like you thinking that the forum should be without theists is similar to someone thinking a forest should be without mushrooms. It's absurd on the face of it. An ecologist would come in and state that (if this was done) the forest would become lifeless. And, just because you are anti-mushroom, you would rather the forest be without mushrooms--even the beautiful ones, even the ones that can take you on journeys.

My suggesting Twatter to you was basically this: if you so despise the forest, why not walk on the plain?

Mushrooms don't chemically castrate homos because they think god doesn't like them.

Still shitting the bed.

The irony, anyway...is that I love the forest, theists are the ones that don't really give a fuck for it. There's their god..and then all of the fake gods. Biblical innerrancy and myths. I like their stories, understand their stories, and can communicate their stories..better than they can..and this too..is a product of their silly theism. Adding nothing...poisoning everything. Nine times out of ten..you can't even count on a theist to correctly describe their own cults teaching.........

Lay all criticism from antitheism aside, and just mull that one over............holy shit....? Even -that- doesn't stop them from doing dumb shit and thinking god wills it.

(I don't think that theism is particularly beautiful...btw, regardless of how pretty any given story is)

You've probably heard of hitchens razor, yeah? Not first expressed by him but most recently and forcefully so. Name a single good thing that only a believer can do. Now name a bad thing that only a believer can do. How quick did you come to one answer, in comparison to the other? Now consider every single one of your comments again.

IKR?

Except I've got a beer instead of popcorn.  I get the impression..sometimes, that peoples first real introduction to full throated anti-theism comes from these boards. I've noticed, over the years..that it can turn an atheist into an apologist.



"Theyre beautiful mushrooms, it would be lifeless without them"
Nah
"Other people do fucked up shit"
Um..yeah...they're in that set, is the problem
"We would lose talent"
Why, is talent somehow connected to belief?
"Hurr durr, thats murder!"
No it's not, god's aren't real..you cant murder them.

So on and so forth.

That's the power of theism at play, if you ask me. It centers itself..even in the minds of those who don't believe, and especially in the minds of those who no longer believe.

(September 29, 2018 at 6:02 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ... but they were cursed with white trash parents.

-my emphasis- You had me until that.

MK, I consider you a friend and a brother. And I truly appreciate your insights. You are most praiseworthy. :-)

(September 29, 2018 at 9:07 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(September 29, 2018 at 6:02 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: ... but they were cursed with white trash parents.

-my emphasis- You had me until that.

MK, I consider you a friend and a brother. And I truly appreciate your insights. You are most praiseworthy. :-)

We consider Mystic a brother and a friend as well. We just leave the r's off.