(November 11, 2018 at 10:08 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 4:45 am)Everena Wrote: No, the whys of our existence are left to philosophy. Science only attempts to discover and understand things about an already existing and operating universe.

Wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartle%E2%...king_state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Universe_from_Nothing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_..._cosmology

Professor Sean Carroll -- Episode 9: Solo — Why Is There Something Rather than Nothing?

https://phys.org/news/2010-07-universe-big.html

https://arxiv.org/abs/1007.1750

No, I am not wrong. I am also not talking about books that have been written to make a ton of money off people who don't want to believe God exists. That is not science, it is exploitation of the field of science to make a quick buck while they interject their own unproven, unfounded ideas into the mix.

You’re a charlatan and a liar, peddling nonsense to score quick virtue points to maximize your own sense of self-worth (which appears to be astronomical already).

GTFO you know nothing hypocrite. Stop lowering the general intelligence of the species with your vacuous blithering.

(November 11, 2018 at 10:13 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 10:06 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: Just what "discoveries" were those. Please reference them, and the scientific support for them.

The only discovery you're going to find at the bottom of that claim is everenas discovery of the word "quantum"..which, as we all know..makes everything about fairy tales sound truthier and sciencier.  Sounding sciency is important, except, ofc, when you're talking about evolutionary biology, in which case science is bullshit

No one has ever said science was bullshit. You are making stuff up again and we have a far better understanding of what science is than you do. You try to pretend it can explain how everything came to be and it does not even come close (nor do scientists pretend they have come close) You are the one ignoring proven facts and living in some fairy tale reality.

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(November 11, 2018 at 10:23 am)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(November 10, 2018 at 3:49 pm)Everena Wrote: What specifically convinces you that complex things can just come to life or come into existence from nothing with no intelligence? And don't say billions of years of evolution because that is a cop-out and a straw man argument.

Chaos Theory demonstrates that order arises spontaneously in this universe. 
Galaxies, star systems, black holes are complex systems. They all arose naturally. 

Your assertion (with no evidence) that complex systems can't "come into existence" is flat out false. 
There are countless examples of them. 
You say they are "cop-outs" and "straw-men" ... apparently you don't know what a straw-man argument actually is. 
Your "cop-out" is nothing but your uninformed opinion, and you dismiss it, as you find it too difficult to address.

No one says anything can just "come to life". 
Your assertion that nothing can just "come into existence" is also false. 
You have no evidence that anything "just came into existence". 
"Coming into existence" is a TEMPORAL process, and it requires time, already in place. It's a nonsensical meaningless phrase that presupposes conditions, not in place. 

Reference us to these "discoveries" in "Quantum Biology" and the scientists who made them.

Quote:No, the whys of our existence are left to philosophy. Science only attempts to discover and understand things about an already existing and operating universe.

Nope. Wrong again. You are unable to refute ANY point at all made here ... or any proposed chemistry in this video ...
There are countless examples of science addressing "why" things arise ... like CANCER, (which apparently, according to you, is part of the *awesome* design). LOL






Here's what wrong about creationist "improbable" assertions.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

There is not one shred of evidence that complex biological systems retain, post mortem, an "identity", nor is there even a proposed mechanism for that.
There is no evidence that human identity even survives, (even though still technically *alive*) catastrophic brain injury.
There is no consciousness ever seen in the absence of at least minimally healthy brains, and that consciousness coincides totally with the degree of brain health and function.
There is no evidence that any part of a human "personal identity" survives biological cessation and decomposition.

"Complexity" IS a straw-man. It is undefined. No one can say what the definition actually is. It's nothing but meaningless "hand-waving". They cannot say what is not "complex enough" thus not requiring a designer, or what the boundary is exactly where a system becomes "complex enough" that it does require a designer. Without precise definitions, it's all a "big nothing" argument.

Wrong. Science attempts only to discover how things are happening, not why they are happening. The word why may be used loosely, but understanding the whys of our existence is not a goal of science.

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(November 11, 2018 at 12:33 pm)Joods Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 7:58 am)Everena Wrote: Classy. Perhaps you should learn to not try to tell someone else what they experienced.

More classier than you'll ever be. And where exactly did I tell you what you experienced? 

Stay stupid. It suits you.

"More classier" Great grammar! And then you call me stupid? lol

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(November 11, 2018 at 3:22 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 3:16 pm)Everena Wrote: False. Evolution is a human invented term used to describe a process that we discovered was happening, It is not a first cause of DNA, food, consciousness or anything else because a process is what happens after life is created, not the creator of it.

Nope.
Thanks for the *perfect* example of a non-sequitur. 
Actually creation is a process too. 
Oops. 
Try harder, please.

And while we're on the subject, the very "existence" of your deity is also a "process" .... AND you claim it always existed, yet at some point made a decision to intervene and cause something ... all totally temporal concepts .... impossible without time already in place. Such a nonsense language you people spout. Totally without meaning.

Yes, creation is a process that requires a conscious intelligent creator. We always have been and we always will be. Learn to live with it.

(November 11, 2018 at 3:35 pm)Everena Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 8:50 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Subtract from that rape, genocide, disease, poverty, widespread ignorance, religious figures who molest children, and you end up with a wash.

Note: I don't normally argue "the problem of evil" unless someone comes at me with "the solution of good." Your argument fails. Try again.

I think hell is happening right here, right now, right before our very eyes. All it takes is observing and examining what is happening in the world. All around us people are celebrating and joyous. All around us people are doing kind and wonderful things. All around us people are suffering and in pain, and all around us people are doing horrifying, terrible things. Additionally, priests and nuns and monks take a lifetime vow of celibacy after claiming to have heard a "calling' and we spay and neuter pets and put animals in cages.

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(November 11, 2018 at 9:11 am)purplepurpose Wrote: Everena, what religion are you from?

I was raised by atheists. I was saved and baptised Christian, however I am not Christian. I think all religions are man-made, but with a good purpose in mind. I have eclectic beliefs.

So are you just trolling the forums by disputing evolution before conceding it and encouraging the perception that you support traditional Christian dogma before disowning it?

Do you have any ground of your own you'd care to share or defend?

(November 11, 2018 at 3:55 pm)Everena Wrote: Yes, creation is a process that requires a conscious intelligent creator. We always have been and we always will be. Learn to live with it.

But that process does not meet YOUR definition, now does it. Woops. 
A "process" takes time. 
How can there be a process when space-time does not exist yet. 

Theology claims God exists in a "timeless" environment, yet constantly defies that by ascribing temporal acts to your god. It's meaningless tripe.  
Intelligence and consciousness REQUIRE time to function. If your god has ALWAYS been conscious and intelligent where did the environment come from in which it MUST operate ? It couldn't have created it, if it needs it. 

Oh well. 
Just another below-standard troll. 
When will they send in a good one ? 
We had one, (only one) once on TTA.

Science validly attempts to discover the "how" (ie what the process WAS), (not why) of how things came to be in their present state.
No one gives a shit about "why". Science wants to know "how".
I think there's a Clue Store somewhere. Perhaps you could buy one there.

(November 11, 2018 at 3:45 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: You say you’ve studied science? But you’re asking fundamental questions about abiogenesis, the formation of matter, the Big Bang etc, as though you’ve never heard of any of it before?

It’s almost as if, you’re lying about that too?

It all requires an intelligent agent, or it doesn't happen.

(November 11, 2018 at 3:55 pm)Everena Wrote: Wrong. Science attempts only to discover how things are happening, not why they are happening. The word why may be used loosely, but understanding the whys of our existence is not a goal of science.

Guess what, religion doesn't seek to discover why things are happening either. Religion just spins a story that confers meaning without any discovery process. In the case of Christianity the meaning is assumed to be revealed by the bible. I think whatever science reveals deserves much more consideration than the just-so stories of religion.

(November 11, 2018 at 4:17 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 3:55 pm)Everena Wrote: Wrong. Science attempts only to discover how things are happening, not why they are happening. The word why may be used loosely, but understanding the whys of our existence is not a goal of science.

Guess what, religion doesn't seek to discover why things are happening either.  Religion just spins a story that confers meaning without any discovery process.  In the case of Christianity the meaning is assumed to be revealed by the bible.  I think whatever science reveals deserves much more consideration than the just-so stories of religion.

So do I. I think all religions are man-made but with a good purpose in mind. Higher intelligence as the creator of this universe is still the only logical assumption.

(November 11, 2018 at 4:17 pm)Everena Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 3:45 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: You say you’ve studied science? But you’re asking fundamental questions about abiogenesis, the formation of matter, the Big Bang etc, as though you’ve never heard of any of it before?

It’s almost as if, you’re lying about that too?

It all requires an intelligent agent, or it doesn't happen.

You forgot to post the evidence that supports that assertion ... take your time. 
It has been proven that the processes that could lead to life do not require any such agent. 
The thing is, you're just simply ignorant of that science, thus you jump to your "gap-filler" god.

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(November 11, 2018 at 4:21 pm)Everena Wrote: So do I. I think all religions are man-made but with a good purpose in mind. Higher intelligence as the creator of this universe is still the only logical assumption.

Nope. Wrong. Reality in this universe has been proven to be non-intuitive. 
Is Uncertainly in Quantum Mechanics "logical" ? Nope. 
Is relativity "logical" ? No. 
You have no reason to assume Reality "outside" or "other than" this universe conforms to what you observe within it. 

Logic is necessary but not sufficient. Logic alone gets you no where. 
You didn't even say which logic you're referring to. There are many logics, many of which are totally consistent, yet do not obtain in Reality.

(November 11, 2018 at 4:24 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 4:17 pm)Everena Wrote: It all requires an intelligent agent, or it doesn't happen.

You forgot to post the evidence that supports that assertion ... take your time. 
It has been proven that the processes that could lead to life do not require any such agent. 
The thing is, you're just simply ignorant of that science, thus you jump to your "gap-filler" god.

The evidence is that everything exists. And it has never been proven that the processes that lead to life do not require an intelligent agent. Please present anything that you think disproves God. I'll be waiting (forever)