What created god? Another god? What created that god? Another god? what created that god? Another God.What created god? Another god?

OR

Matter and energy has always existed and due to natural forces, that matter and energy was able to assemble into galaxy's, stars, and planets, and on some of those planets, matter and energy, created floods. There I explained to you how the flood happened, nothing SUPERnatural about that.

Obviously there was no global flood, it's physically and logistically impossible. Go with the theory you brought up, the one about a local flood inspiring such writings as we find about the flood in Genesis. It still mightn't be right, but it's so much more plausible. You know, I know it, everybody knows it and so the idea that the bible is the literal word of god disintegrates. A question for you Salty, does that change your faith?

So, I'm curious about something, Salty.

You're hanging your hat on whether or not there was a "Flood." Do you buy the rest of the story? That a 600 year old guy and his 3 sons built a 450 foot long boat and gathered up 2 ( or 7 pairs ...depending on which version of the story you read ) of every animal and herded them onto the aforementioned ship?

That kangaroos were obtained from Australia? Bison from N. America? Alpaca from S. America? Polar Bears from the Arctic? Etc., etc. and that they all lived together on said boat until it crashed into a mountain and then they all what? Swam home?

How far are you willing to take this nonsense?

And No. Not only is the exodus a load of shit so is the entire idea of mass slavery in Egypt in the Late Bronze Age. That was not how they organized their building projects. They relied on a corvee labor system among their own populace.


However, by the time these stories were written down mass slavery was commonplace among the Greeks demonstrating once again that ancient writings tell us more about the lives of the authors than they do about the people they pretend to be commenting upon.

What he said ^^^^^^

(September 28, 2011 at 3:35 pm)salty Wrote: I believe you're well aware that I am not scientifically minded, that I am not going to use my personal time and life energy to look at wind patterns and the probability of the water vaporizing concerning the flood, there are apologetic websites about these subjects! You can read up on all of that for yourself!

If you're not scientifically minded, why even ponder such mysteries? The only way to really figure it out is through science! You already waste your personal time and energy worrying about what's going to happen to you when you're worm meat. Most of us here are scientifically minded, and basically gag at the thought of reading apologetic bullshit for anything other than a chuckle. FYI!!!

(September 28, 2011 at 3:35 pm)salty Wrote: I thought the main reason for me to answer the question was so that you could see me evaluate evidence (or lack of it) and learn my opinion on what I've read. I thought it was so that you could see me think for myself and yes, I still trust God, and yes I am still expressing my thoughts the way that I do it. I didn't think that you actually wanted me to present a CASE, I'm not Lee Strobel!

You're not Lee Strobel?!?! Holy Shit! I totally thought you were!

(September 28, 2011 at 3:35 pm)salty Wrote: Concerning my research. I am addressing creationism, evolution, the trinity and theories on the age of the world, but I don't have the time on my hands to write a book on any of these subjects! I barely have time to get on this forum anymore. Really, I don't know what you do in your spare time, but I have a life, I have a husband, I have a job, I have a family, I have a church, I have responsibilities, therefore the research that I "fit in" for you (and El Dinero), no matter how upsetting (or disappointing), shows my devotion to speaking for myself, thinking for myself to answering people I have no obligation to answer.

Really? We all have responsibilities. I work full time helping 14 year old girls tell their Christian parents they're pregnant, and them help them find safe places to live when their parents kick them out. I have 3 kids, I do volunteer work, I try to dance a couple times a week, I do a cycle class 5 days a week, I am in school, always writing papers, essays, etc... I read, I masturbate, and we all have responsibilities. I still manage to find some time to contribute to the forum. You have Jesus in your life, I don't, so you think that he would help you find time for everything. Maybe you should pray on it. In the meantime, save us the cop-out's and just admit you got nothing.

(September 28, 2011 at 3:35 pm)salty Wrote: Whatever the case, just know that I have other things going on and I "make time" for you and everyone here because I care. And... you know what...I really don't need to take an earful from you, like this...
I have to get off. I have to get back to my job. Sorry I can't read everyone's responses, but I'll be back to answer.

Salty

Oh well thank you so much for caring enough about us godless heathens to take the time out of your life to preach to us your apologetic nonsense. If you don't want an earful about it, it could be that you're in the wrong forum.

Quote:I didn't think that you actually wanted me to present a CASE, I'm not Lee Strobel!

You may as well be. He's terribly unconvincing too.

Quote:Two generations of the Jewish elite were forced to reside in Babylon. When they returned to Israel in 538 BC with the backing of the Persian King Cyrus the Great they brought the Mesopotamian mythology they had been taught with them.

Even this is propaganda, Pap. There's a fine book called "The View From Nebo" by Amy Dockser Marcus who details a number of archaeological finds. One concerns cunieform records from the period when the Judahites were in Babylon. As she notes on page 174:

The Book of Chronicles states that the deportees from Judah were servants in Babylon, but, in fact that wasn't the case for most of the exiles. Instead, they obtained land from the state and were considered the king's tenants. Fathers were able to bequeath the land to their sons. Most positions in the empire were open to Jews. Some were engaged in crafts and commerce, others absorbed into huge state projects that were paid salaries from the state treasury. Former Judeans even got posts in the imperial administration and rose to senior positions. A huge bureaucracy was needed to run such a far-flung empire. Educated, literate exiles like the ones from Judah were quickly integrated into the civil service.

I'm not sure what it is about Jews that they love to portray themselves as slaves but it does seem to be a hangup with them. Perhaps Summer can chime in with some explanation for this constant kvetching they do?

(September 28, 2011 at 7:14 pm)aleialoura Wrote: Really? We all have responsibilities. I work full time helping 14 year old girls tell their Christian parents they're pregnant, and them help them find safe places to live when their parents kick them out. I have 3 kids, I do volunteer work, I try to dance a couple times a week, I do a cycle class 5 days a week, I am in school, always writing papers, essays, etc... I read, I masturbate, and we all have responsibilities. I still manage to find some time to contribute to the forum. You have Jesus in your life, I don't, so you think that he would help you find time for everything. Maybe you should pray on it. In the meantime, save us the cop-out's and just admit you got nothing.

I have to say you are far more of a hero than Jesus Christ ever was, just for the balancing all those commitments in my life.

---

(September 29, 2011 at 2:00 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Two generations of the Jewish elite were forced to reside in Babylon. When they returned to Israel in 538 BC with the backing of the Persian King Cyrus the Great they brought the Mesopotamian mythology they had been taught with them.

Even this is propaganda, Pap. There's a fine book called "The View From Nebo" by Amy Dockser Marcus who details a number of archaeological finds. One concerns cunieform records from the period when the Judahites were in Babylon. As she notes on page 174:

The Book of Chronicles states that the deportees from Judah were servants in Babylon, but, in fact that wasn't the case for most of the exiles. Instead, they obtained land from the state and were considered the king's tenants. Fathers were able to bequeath the land to their sons. Most positions in the empire were open to Jews. Some were engaged in crafts and commerce, others absorbed into huge state projects that were paid salaries from the state treasury. Former Judeans even got posts in the imperial administration and rose to senior positions. A huge bureaucracy was needed to run such a far-flung empire. Educated, literate exiles like the ones from Judah were quickly integrated into the civil service.

I'm not sure what it is about Jews that they love to portray themselves as slaves but it does seem to be a hangup with them. Perhaps Summer can chime in with some explanation for this constant kvetching they do?

Interesting quote there Min, the late development of a Jewish identity would be mirrored in the quite late development of true monotheism among the Israelites (which is likely during the exile and just after it). I am familiar with Israel Finkelstein's argument about monotheism emerging during the reign of King Josiah.

However I would argue the religious reforms that occurred then were a move towards just worshipping Yahweh alone, while still recognizing the existence of other gods. Because there is a lot of material in the old testament which alludes to the existence of more than one god, phrases like "above all gods" etc and also the word Elohim literally means gods.

(September 29, 2011 at 2:00 am)Minimalist Wrote: Even this is propaganda, Pap. There's a fine book called "The View From Nebo" by Amy Dockser Marcus who details a number of archaeological finds. One concerns cunieform records from the period when the Judahites were in Babylon. As she notes on page 174:

The Book of Chronicles states that the deportees from Judah were servants in Babylon, but, in fact that wasn't the case for most of the exiles. Instead, they obtained land from the state and were considered the king's tenants. Fathers were able to bequeath the land to their sons. Most positions in the empire were open to Jews. Some were engaged in crafts and commerce, others absorbed into huge state projects that were paid salaries from the state treasury. Former Judeans even got posts in the imperial administration and rose to senior positions. A huge bureaucracy was needed to run such a far-flung empire. Educated, literate exiles like the ones from Judah were quickly integrated into the civil service.

Kicked in balls again for listening to Biblical scholars. I guess that’s what I get. I’m going to have to start treating the term as an oxymoron. I do want to make sure I understand what you are saying though. You aren’t disputing the Mesopotamian origins of much of the material in the Old Testament. Just that it got there though a different method than I proposed.

Got any other recommended sources? I’ve found something on Google books. Judah and the Judeans in the Persian period by Oded Lipschitz, Manfred Oeming, but I haven’t had a chance to look at it yet.


Quick change of gears…. What do you know about the Ugaritic archives? There’s a n00b over on the other AF talking about them, and I’m not familiar with them.