(November 25, 2018 at 4:19 am)Amarok Wrote:

(November 25, 2018 at 3:50 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: I don't even understand that sentence.
Probably my fault, language gap.
Could you rephrase?

I was trying to say that it sounds like your saying that if we allowed consensual incest relationships this will be a consequence . Yet you provide no reason why to think this would occur .I hope that clarifies things .

What would be the consequence?
I don't think i was talking about grand consequences, just saying that consent in incest might not be as dry-cut as taken at face value, as a relationship could have been warped during formative years.

(November 25, 2018 at 4:35 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(November 25, 2018 at 4:19 am)Amarok Wrote: I was trying to say that it sounds like your saying that if we allowed consensual incest relationships this will be a consequence . Yet you provide no reason why to think this would occur .I hope that clarifies things .

What would be the consequence?
I don't think i was talking about grand consequences, just saying that consent in incest might not be as dry-cut as taken at face value, as a relationship could have been warped during formative years.

Even if that were the case by the time their adults it think they still get to choose and this also assumes the relationships of that nature need to be drven by outside factors .

(November 25, 2018 at 5:11 am)Amarok Wrote:

(November 25, 2018 at 4:35 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: What would be the consequence?
I don't think i was talking about grand consequences, just saying that consent in incest might not be as dry-cut as taken at face value, as a relationship could have been warped during formative years.

Even if that were the case by the time their adults it think they still get to choose and this also assumes the relationships of that nature need to be drven by outside factors .

What do you mean by The last part of that sentence? "And this also ..."

(November 25, 2018 at 6:08 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(November 25, 2018 at 5:11 am)Amarok Wrote: Even if that were the case by the time their adults it think they still get to choose and this also assumes the relationships of that nature need to be drven by outside factors .

What do you mean by The last part of that sentence? "And this also ..."

I don't know how to make it clearer

(November 25, 2018 at 6:45 am)Amarok Wrote:

(November 25, 2018 at 6:08 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: What do you mean by The last part of that sentence? "And this also ..."

I don't know how to make it clearer

Are you saying that i'm neglecting The possibility that such romantic feelings are grown Naturaly, without malicious intent from, for example, one of The parents?

(November 25, 2018 at 6:53 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(November 25, 2018 at 6:45 am)Amarok Wrote: I don't know how to make it clearer

Are you saying that i'm neglecting The possibility that such romantic feelings are grown Naturaly, without malicious intent from, for example, one of The parents?

Close enough

(November 25, 2018 at 6:55 am)Amarok Wrote:

(November 25, 2018 at 6:53 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Are you saying that i'm neglecting The possibility that such romantic feelings are grown Naturaly, without malicious intent from, for example, one of The parents?

Close enough

Well, I'm not. 
I'm not saying it isn't possible that, for example, a brother and sister, grow up without being forced, manipulated or brainwashed into being romantically and physically attracted to one-another. And I'm not one to tell them not to fuck one another, should this be the case.
Though, due to the fact that grooming does exist and due to the fact that natural attraction to that extent within a close family setting is rather rare, it is not illogical to fear such practices to have taken place. I haven't said anything but that, so far. And I think anything else you think I said, is probably tacked on.

From this point on, however, I do want to divulge into something you brought to the table. 
The freedom to make your own choice when it comes to incest is a difficult subject. Because I agree with you fullheartedly that adults should be able to make their own choices.  As long as they don't harm others. My choice to swing my fist ends where your face begins. That sort of thing.
But I've had a fair share of clients that were cousins of one another. It's a cultural thing, one of them told me once. It's different from them, people who came here from another country, than us Belgians. (Though technically cousins are allowed to marry in Belgium. And up to less than half a century ago, such a practice was more than socially acceptable.) However, in a lot of these cases, their marriages were still pre-aranged by their family. Now one could say they still chose to go through with it. Chose to not be rejected from their family and rather do something that not only seemed acceptable but culturally normal and obvious to them. Something that was required of them. Expected.
If they really didn't want to. They could have chosen not to marry their cousin. They often married here in Belgium, a free country. We have support systems in place should someone need to flee from the wrath of their family. They CAN choose not to. So, I guess, if they choose en mass to do so, there isn't a problem, is there? There's not a point of discussion to be made?
I'm not claiming to have an answer here, Amarok. But I do want to come to a common ground that this question isn't quite solid, but rather fluid.

In any sexual relationship, there are three things I care about: 1. is there consent? 2. Are arrangements made concerning pregnancy? 3. Are diseases being transmitted? Once those three aspects are dealt with, I don't care what people do with their genitals. Each of the three aspects has potential complications (what is the proper age of consent? what happens if someone changes their mind? if a child is born, do the parents have the resources to raise it? etc).

Generally speaking, humans don't like to mate with people they grow up with. This makes sense biologically and discourages incest. For those that are still interested, there is a power dynamic in a family that could be a problem with consent. As has been noted, genetics suggest no children be born from an incestuous relationship, but that isn't an absolute thing.

So, I actually dated a woman that had met her (half) brother in adulthood and they had had a sexual interaction. She said the degree of attraction was very strong. The relationship with her brother had to end because there were threats to her keeping custody of her children (from another relationship). I had no issue with this aspect of her past. The three conditions above were met nicely.

(November 25, 2018 at 5:45 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(November 25, 2018 at 6:55 am)Amarok Wrote: Close enough

Well, I'm not. 
I'm not saying it isn't possible that, for example, a brother and sister, grow up without being forced, manipulated or brainwashed into being romantically and physically attracted to one-another. And I'm not one to tell them not to fuck one another, should this be the case.
Though, due to the fact that grooming does exist and due to the fact that natural attraction to that extent within a close family setting is rather rare, it is not illogical to fear such practices to have taken place. I haven't said anything but that, so far. And I think anything else you think I said, is probably tacked on.

From this point on, however, I do want to divulge into something you brought to the table. 
The freedom to make your own choice when it comes to incest is a difficult subject. Because I agree with you fullheartedly that adults should be able to make their own choices.  As long as they don't harm others. My choice to swing my fist ends where your face begins. That sort of thing.
But I've had a fair share of clients that were cousins of one another. It's a cultural thing, one of them told me once. It's different from them, people who came here from another country, than us Belgians. (Though technically cousins are allowed to marry in Belgium. And up to less than half a century ago, such a practice was more than socially acceptable.) However, in a lot of these cases, their marriages were still pre-aranged by their family. Now one could say they still chose to go through with it. Chose to not be rejected from their family and rather do something that not only seemed acceptable but culturally normal and obvious to them. Something that was required of them. Expected.
If they really didn't want to. They could have chosen not to marry their cousin. They often married here in Belgium, a free country. We have support systems in place should someone need to flee from the wrath of their family. They CAN choose not to. So, I guess, if they choose en mass to do so, there isn't a problem, is there? There's not a point of discussion to be made?
I'm not claiming to have an answer here, Amarok. But I do want to come to a common ground that this question isn't quite solid, but rather fluid.

1.It's actually far from rare for people to feel a natural attraction to a relative actually without grooming and the idea that said grooming has taken place would likely be regarded as child abuse even under current laws .

2. Your second point seems to be more of objection to arranged marriage rather then incest

(November 26, 2018 at 1:58 am)Amarok Wrote:

(November 25, 2018 at 5:45 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Well, I'm not. 
I'm not saying it isn't possible that, for example, a brother and sister, grow up without being forced, manipulated or brainwashed into being romantically and physically attracted to one-another. And I'm not one to tell them not to fuck one another, should this be the case.
Though, due to the fact that grooming does exist and due to the fact that natural attraction to that extent within a close family setting is rather rare, it is not illogical to fear such practices to have taken place. I haven't said anything but that, so far. And I think anything else you think I said, is probably tacked on.

From this point on, however, I do want to divulge into something you brought to the table. 
The freedom to make your own choice when it comes to incest is a difficult subject. Because I agree with you fullheartedly that adults should be able to make their own choices.  As long as they don't harm others. My choice to swing my fist ends where your face begins. That sort of thing.
But I've had a fair share of clients that were cousins of one another. It's a cultural thing, one of them told me once. It's different from them, people who came here from another country, than us Belgians. (Though technically cousins are allowed to marry in Belgium. And up to less than half a century ago, such a practice was more than socially acceptable.) However, in a lot of these cases, their marriages were still pre-aranged by their family. Now one could say they still chose to go through with it. Chose to not be rejected from their family and rather do something that not only seemed acceptable but culturally normal and obvious to them. Something that was required of them. Expected.
If they really didn't want to. They could have chosen not to marry their cousin. They often married here in Belgium, a free country. We have support systems in place should someone need to flee from the wrath of their family. They CAN choose not to. So, I guess, if they choose en mass to do so, there isn't a problem, is there? There's not a point of discussion to be made?
I'm not claiming to have an answer here, Amarok. But I do want to come to a common ground that this question isn't quite solid, but rather fluid.

1.It's actually far from rare for people to feel a natural attraction to a relative actually without grooming and the idea that said grooming has taken place would likely be regarded as child abuse even under current laws .

2. Your second point seems to be more of objection to arranged marriage rather then incest

1. I'll be the first to admit I don't have any actual numbers on this. But I don't think here in the west, at least, that it's a common occurance. At least not past puberty. But I could be mistaken.
2. Yeah, it is. As I said, were two related people without any grooming come to want to indulge in such practices, it'd be completely their business. And they shouldn't have to worry at all about anything I feel about the subject. But aforementioned grooming is like an arranged marriage, be it between family members. And that is the biggest problem I have with the incest-question. And I just meant to show you how hard it might actually be to point out the actual grooming, brainwashing or influencing taking place might be. For example, is it concidered child-abuse if a family sets up two cousins to be married when they come of age, starting at their birth? Shouldn't it be? And if so, how do you prevent it without  tresspassing on 'people's freedom of choice'?