(December 1, 2018 at 3:15 pm)Amarok Wrote:

(December 1, 2018 at 3:03 pm)Cherub786 Wrote: I disagree. The Iraqis gave themselves this war and chaos. They could have taken advantage of the golden opportunity that was presented to them, the first Arab country to have the gift of democracy. Instead they chose to launch an insurgency, start a sectarian civil war, ethnically cleanse each other, bomb each other's shrines and mosques, and elect corrupt politicians (Nouri al-Maliki) to loot their coffers.

Of course a lot of the blame lies on external actors. The Saudis, Syrians and Iranians did not want Iraq to succeed from day 1. They infiltrated the country with their proxies to destabilize it. Why? They knew if Iraq becomes a successful democracy, their own people will want the same thing and their autocratic and corrupt rule will be in jeopardy.

 The Iraqi's didn't want to be occupied by a foreign military . Nor wanted to be run by American puppets and it was all done under Bush's impotence and blaming other counties for Bush's failure is weak sauce . The Iraqi people owe Bush and America nothing .

Oh please "occupation". Of course there had to be an occupation to ensure that the Baathists were gone for good. How else do you liberate Iraq from a fascist dictatorship. Weren't Japan and Korea briefly occupied by the Americans after WWII? That was a necessary but temporary occupation to ensure that those countries became the fine, blossoming democracies that they are today.

Likewise, the American occupation of Iraq was not lengthy. It lasted only a couple of years. Everyone knew it wasn't a colonization. You are making it out as though America occupied Iraq like how Israel has been occupying the West Bank and Gaza for over a generation. Not that kind of occupation.

And I bet the majority of Syrians would have loved to have the Americans come in and occupy their country briefly to for the purpose of removing another brutal Baathist regime.

-and yet we didn't.  sigh.  

That's the sad thing about late stage hegemonic america.  Even when we have good reason to do something, we do that thing for other reasons, and even when we could do that something in a robust and upstanding way...we do it some other way. It's like watching a mythical hero become a senile geriatric.

Quote:Oh please "occupation". Of course there had to be an occupation to ensure that the Baathists were gone for good. How else do you liberate Iraq from a democracy. Weren't Japan and Korea briefly occupied by the Americans after WWII? That was a necessary but temporary occupation to ensure that those countries became the fine, blossoming democracies that they are today.

It's still an occupation and the Iraq's did not care for it and comparing Japan too Iraqi is absurd 

Quote:Likewise, the American occupation of Iraq was not lengthy. It lasted only a couple of years. Everyone knew it wasn't a colonization. You are making it out as though America occupied Iraq like how Israel has been occupying the West Bank and Gaza for over a generation. Not that kind of occupation.

The fact there was one makes my point 

Quote:And I bet the majority of Syrians would have loved to have the Americans come in and occupy their country briefly to for the purpose of removing another brutal Baathist regime.

Why don't you go ask them if they would foreign army in their country

(December 1, 2018 at 3:16 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(December 1, 2018 at 3:07 pm)Cherub786 Wrote: The US is not responsible for ISIS. I know the history of ISIS going back to Zarqawi. They were encouraged by the Syrian Baathist regime of Assad to destabilize Iraq for the reasons I mentioned already. This extreme faction of Qaeda then declared themselves ISIS, terrorized the Sunnis of Anbar and Mosul, committing acts of terrorism on the Shiites too. Why would the US create ISIS to destabilize its own project of nation building in Iraq?

If Bush or a neocon was president, they would have bombed Syria to smithereens allowing the FSA to take control and oust the Baathists and you would have no refugee problem.

Obama and now Trump are weak and incompetent on Syria. And that maniac Assad turned his own country into rubble, pushing it centuries back and now it is an economic catastrophe, all for the purpose of remaining in power as president. I tell you, these people deserve what happens to them for their unlimited stupidity

If you send a gorilla into a china shop, you are responsible for all the broken crockery in there even if the gorilla did it and not you.

We sent a gorilla into Iraq, ISIS is one of the shards of broken crockery that resulted in the region. We are fucking responsible.

Not at all. America didn't loose the gorilla in the china shop. America was the one that set up the china shop in the first place.
The gorilla was sent in by Iraq's neighbors (Saudis, Syria and Iran) who did not want the china shop to succeed and become a flourishing business.
This is a much more accurate parable.

LOL, when you find yourself cheering on the US of A more than -I- do...you just might have swallowed some nutters koolaid.

(December 1, 2018 at 3:17 pm)Amarok Wrote:

(December 1, 2018 at 3:11 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: You still don’t understand you can not give democracy as a gift.

The best you can do is try to give the facade and the institutions of democracy as a gift.

Facade and Instititution of democracy does not equal democracy.

For many societies, the fact that the facade and institution of democracy is a terrible curse that will wreck the society without giving birth to actual democracy is something they understand because of their on-the-ground experience of their societal world view and deeper societal power structure, but we in our airy conceit can not see from 80,000 feet nor fathom or imagine in our doctrinarian mind.

Democractic facade or institution has either failed or is on life support everywhere in the Middle East.  It has never ever midwifed any democracy in that part of the world.

Indeed you can't give people a Democracy nor was that the goal . The goal was a puppet regime .Just like countless other times America has "spread Democracy "

If the goal was a puppet regime why isn't democratic Iraq a puppet state now? As soon as Iraq got its first elected government it became cozy with Iran, America's greatest nemesis in the region. America was always frustrated by the elected governments of Iraq because they were giving a free hand to Iran to come in and do what they want. Naturally America would have expected the Iraqis to share their interests and be closer to them, after all America was the one that gifted them democracy. But America never forced Iraq to become its puppet, America got very little out of the Iraq war for itself. It truly was a selfless act even if the motive was not 100% pure. The result is what matters.

(December 1, 2018 at 3:37 pm)Cherub786 Wrote:

(December 1, 2018 at 3:16 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: If you send a gorilla into a china shop, you are responsible for all the broken crockery in there even if the gorilla did it and not you.

We sent a gorilla into Iraq, ISIS is one of the shards of broken crockery that resulted in the region. We are fucking responsible.

Not at all. America didn't loose the gorilla in the china shop. America was the one that set up the china shop in the first place.
The gorilla was sent in by Iraq's neighbors (Saudis, Syria and Iran) who did not want the china shop to succeed and become a flourishing business.
This is a much more accurate parable.

Then they built a China shop a frail breakable thing and yes they did set it lose 

Your apologetic s for the Bush regimes stupidity and  reckless American interventionism is sad

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Quote:If the goal was a puppet regime why isn't democratic Iraq a puppet state now? As soon as Iraq got its first elected government it became cozy with Iran, America's greatest nemesis in the region. America was always frustrated by the elected governments of Iraq because they were giving a free hand to Iran to come in and do what they want. Naturally America would have expected the Iraqis to share their interests and be closer to them, after all America was the one that gifted them democracy. But America never forced Iraq to become its puppet, America got very little out of the Iraq war for itself. It truly was a selfless act even if the motive was not 100% pure. The result is what matters.

Simple America overestimated it's ability to insert puppets and no if they expected that they were fools and no Democracy is not a gift only American arrogance would assume this and America got plenty for the war and it was in no way a selfless act . Your nativity is hilarious .

(December 1, 2018 at 3:37 pm)Cherub786 Wrote:

(December 1, 2018 at 3:16 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: If you send a gorilla into a china shop, you are responsible for all the broken crockery in there even if the gorilla did it and not you.

We sent a gorilla into Iraq, ISIS is one of the shards of broken crockery that resulted in the region. We are fucking responsible.

Not at all. America didn't loose the gorilla in the china shop. America was the one that set up the china shop in the first place.
The gorilla was sent in by Iraq's neighbors (Saudis, Syria and Iran) who did not want the china shop to succeed and become a flourishing business.
This is a much more accurate parable.

No, America unleashed the gorilla in the china shop, then covered up all the broken crockery with a burlap cloth that has the word “democracy” stanciled on it.

When the burlap cloth is ripped away and broken crockery agains revealed, idiots like you tried to look innocent an claim “i didn’t do that!”.

To be fair, some well meaning Americans did pick up a piece or two in randomly and glue them together with no regard to their original shape in the name of creating “new institutions”.  The few oddly shaped collection of glued together shards they left behind mostly can’t serve much useful function. In the processes of making these they stepped on and broke more of the wrecked crockery on the floor, But these few glue together monstrosity unless of any function is enough for the likes of you to claim “well we made this new china shop”.

Quote:The result is what matters.

Yup the war chaos was the result

(December 1, 2018 at 4:08 pm)Amarok Wrote:

Quote:The result is what matters.

Yup the war chaos was the result

The result is indeed what matters.


The result of Bush junior’s foreign policy is American went from being a stable, secure, prosperous  and respected global hegemon with ironclad alliances with everyone who had a reasonable economy, to an isolated power teetering on financial collapse and ensnared in two open ended wars it didn’t know how to win and looked upon with feelings ranging from condescending contempt to bitter hostility by most.


Most countries who experience such a sharp decline required the help of defeat in a major war with one or more peer Great powers to do this.

American under bush Jr managed to do this by having to fake victory in wars with 2 piddling 4th rate failed states.

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Indeed, thanks to bush Jr, American has not been great for so long that it has completely forgotten what are the prerequisite of being great, so much of its population could actually buy the ridiculous notion greatness peddled by likes of trump.