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(December 11, 2018 at 11:46 pm)Agnostico Wrote: U started of reasonable but then u just ended up like the rest. Trying to put a belief label next to my agnostic position.
All after everyone said they didn't want labels
I don't care about beliefs. They mean nothing to me. Their just based on feelings. Thats all it is. FEELINGS.
Nope, still wrong.
A belief is nothing more that accepting a premise or proposition as being true, or likely true.
One can accept a premise or proposition as being true for bad reasons (based on feelings, fallacious thinking), or one can accept a premise or proposition as being true for good reasons (demonstrable evidence, reasoned argument, valid and sound logic).
Quote:The biggest question is in regard to knowledge
"Do i know there aren't any type of Gods? Including extraterrestrial and some far-out thing?"
Many of us atheists here do not claim to know, with absolute certainty, that gods don't exist.
Quote:Belief is nothing. Its the fairytale u read to ur kids before bed. Its the fiction section of the library where girls are reading romance novels.
Nope, still wrong.
I am going to continue to post this to you until you get it, or put me on ignore. A belief is nothing more that accepting a premise as being true.
Quote:Im tempted to say if u must put labels on me then call me agnostic theist. Cos yall pushing me away by trying to force beliefs onto me.
That is a legitimate label to hold. That would mean you do not claim to know if gods exist or not, but you believe they do.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
(December 12, 2018 at 11:11 am)Simon Moon Wrote: Seriously?!
Not sure how you've remained ignorant of the the facts, but theism has causes, and continues to cause, many real world negative consequences.
the facts... atheism have caused, and continues to cause many real world negative consequences
politics have caused, and continues to cause many real world negative consequences
societal norms have caused, and continues to cause many real world negative consequences
hrmm.. well the only thing relating them all is people and people will do crappy things and blame whatever is convenient.
Some one will probability beat me to the post but pleas, provide a link to these "Atheism have caused, and continues to cause realworld negative consequences." ?
Having almost finished the final chapter of my "Yuri Geller's 'How too'!" phsycic hand book I'm feeling vibrations to indicate 'Communism' or some such ilk.
December 12, 2018 at 1:22 pm (This post was last modified: December 12, 2018 at 1:22 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(December 11, 2018 at 9:32 pm)Agnostico Wrote: I question the motivation behind some atheists. There is a lot of anti theist openly attacking theists. Why? And why are they all so angry?
Check out this guy… Why is he so emotional? Where is all this anger and hate coming from??? Is his anger justified? Why? Is this guys argument even logical?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoIo_FUj408
Why are you asking strangers to explain another stranger’s anger issues? I don’t know this person in the video personally. How would I know the answers to any of your questions about him? Why don’t you ask us questions about ourselves, since you came here to us, and try to get to know some of us better? The best way to gain insight into the way a person is, is to engage with them directly, no?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Passive aggressive way of saying "I cant handle skepticism so please don't make me think".
Again, stop confusing anger with "aggression" as if we are all bigots. Go re read Boru's list on this page he already posted until you get it.
We are not going to barbecue your kittens or rape your women. But yea, when people make truth claims about the nature of reality, and use those claims to justify oppression, violence, bigotry, or denial of scientific fact, our "anger" is just a motivation to say something to keep those things in check.
I can for example, value the likes of Martin Luther King Jr, but no, I do not think our species ability to do good or be good is coming from the bible. I can value the likes of Malala, and again, no, I do not think her compassion or value of female education is coming from Allah or the Koran. I can value the likes of Ann Frank, but again, no, I do not think her value of humanity even in the face of such horrors, means that Yahweh was real.
I still see lots of good in my species. I simply don't assign anything we do as a species, good or bad, to old mythology.
We are empowered, but we are not out to oppress you for merely saying you need to consider you got it wrong.
It wasn't meant to be passive aggressive. There is truth behind the quote "You will continue to suffer if you have an emotional reaction to everything that is said to you. True power is restraint. If words control you that means everyone else can control you. Breathe and allow things to pass" - Warren Buffet.
No where have I suggested don't accept criticism, don't make me think or skeptics are kitten burners. No where did I use attempt to justify oppression, violence, bigotry, etc.
My point was that anger or aggression are just emotional responses and aren't a good motivation for anything. I can get angry and stomp and romp, but until that subsides and I can reason what I am mad about or what to do about there isn't any forward motion. I'm not saying don't be angry about something , I'm saying don't act in that anger because emotionalism makes you less rational.
(December 12, 2018 at 11:11 am)Simon Moon Wrote: Seriously?!
Not sure how you've remained ignorant of the the facts, but theism has causes, and continues to cause, many real world negative consequences.
the facts... atheism have caused, and continues to cause many real world negative consequences
politics have caused, and continues to cause many real world negative consequences
societal norms have caused, and continues to cause many real world negative consequences
hrmm.. well the only thing relating them all is people and people will do crappy things and blame whatever is convenient.
"True power is restraint" ...... I agree, but what does that have to do with ridicule, blasphemy or criticism of bad claims?
I don't know if you have seen "Shindler's List." There was a scene in it, where the camp guard got pissed that a Jewish boy didn't care for his horse properly. Oscar managed to convince the Nazi not to kill him for it, AT FIRST, but the asshole still went on to murder the kid.
Now, you tell me, what takes more restraint? Oscar knowing that if he flat out from the start resists, and needlessly gets himself murdered by a Nazi, or the Nazi being so fucking insecure he murders an innocent boy?
AND sorry, "Anger" is a good motivator, it is part of our fight our flight evolution. If you want to say ignorant anger out of hate and bigotry is bad, I can agree with that. But, why the fuck should should I not be angry at assholes who convict women of their own rape and blame them because some old book fearful men quote, justify victim blaming?
Why should I not be angry that holy books are used to deny women rights? Or deny gays rights? And yes, I do get angry at people who say an old book of mythology says I am evil for not belonging to their club.
"Restraint" does not mean letting your brains or dignity fall out. I am perfectly capable of compassion and non violence. But no, that does not mean I always have to be polite to bullshit.
December 12, 2018 at 1:57 pm (This post was last modified: December 12, 2018 at 1:58 pm by Bucky Ball.)
(December 12, 2018 at 1:02 pm)Agnostico Wrote: U started of reasonable but then u just ended up like the rest. Trying to put a belief label next to my agnostic position.
All after everyone said they didn't want labels
I don't care about beliefs. They mean nothing to me. Their just based on feelings. Thats all it is. FEELINGS.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell
Take things with a grain of salt. Internet atheism and theism isn't typical as to what is actually out there in most cases. Usually you can't tell the difference with people. If I go to the grocery store I don't try to figure out everybody's religion, and it rarely comes up in conversations. If someone proposes some wacky claim or something doesn't sound right, it makes since just to go and do some research. If it's right, you learned something. If it still sounds fishy, throw it back because it didn't hold enough weight.
December 12, 2018 at 2:08 pm (This post was last modified: December 12, 2018 at 2:12 pm by Brian37.)
(December 12, 2018 at 1:58 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Take things with a grain of salt. Internet atheism and theism isn't typical as to what is actually out there in most cases. Usually you can't tell the difference with people. If I go to the grocery store I don't try to figure out everybody's religion, and it rarely comes up in conversations. If someone proposes some wacky claim or something doesn't sound right, it makes since just to go and do some research. If it's right, you learned something. If it still sounds fishy, throw it back because it didn't hold enough weight.
Not the point. Between the ability for a majority, in any given society to be open in in public, for that majority, in person, it is far easier for that majority, than another minority living under that majority to be open in person.
It is going to be easier for a Sunni to be open in public in Saudi Arabia than say a Sunni living as a minority in Shiite Iran. It is going to be easier for a Jew to be open in Israel than a Muslim living in Israel. It is far easier in America face to face, for a Baptist or Catholic or Mormon, or Protestant to be open in public than it is for a Muslim or atheist or gay person.
Of course if you don't bring things up in public there is less likely to be conflict, but that does not mean that there are not presumed social pecking orders in any given society.
December 12, 2018 at 2:19 pm (This post was last modified: December 12, 2018 at 2:31 pm by T0 Th3 M4X.)
(December 12, 2018 at 1:57 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(December 12, 2018 at 1:02 pm)Agnostico Wrote: U started of reasonable but then u just ended up like the rest. Trying to put a belief label next to my agnostic position.
All after everyone said they didn't want labels
I don't care about beliefs. They mean nothing to me. Their just based on feelings. Thats all it is. FEELINGS.
The comment is true, but to say it makes his statement false isn't accurate, because how are brain processes something can depend on how we feel about it and our chosen response. In other words, you're trying to disqualify one part of the process that can affect other parts of it. Two people can experience the same stimuli, have different feelings about it, and their brain may process it completely differently. Example: One person can like what the president said and feel confident or another person can disagree and feel distress, or even feel like it's an attempt at betrayal. Maybe it's something to do with taxes and one person is getting the short end of the stick. Well you might see anger. Maybe they're saving money. They might feel happy and relieved. What applies to one person doesn't necessarily apply to others. I'm guessing Agnostico probably is more left-brained in his approach to life. I couldn't say the same about myself, as I favor the right hemisphere. It doesn't mean you don't use both, but the capacity we use both is different.
(December 12, 2018 at 2:08 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(December 12, 2018 at 1:58 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Take things with a grain of salt. Internet atheism and theism isn't typical as to what is actually out there in most cases. Usually you can't tell the difference with people. If I go to the grocery store I don't try to figure out everybody's religion, and it rarely comes up in conversations. If someone proposes some wacky claim or something doesn't sound right, it makes since just to go and do some research. If it's right, you learned something. If it still sounds fishy, throw it back because it didn't hold enough weight.
Not the point. Between the ability for a majority, in any given society to be open in in public, for that majority, in person, it is far easier for that majority, than another minority living under that majority to be open in person.
It is going to be easier for a Sunni to be open in public in Saudi Arabia than say a Sunni living as a minority in Shiite Iran. It is going to be easier for a Jew to be open in Israel than a Muslim living in Israel. It is far easier in America face to face, for a Baptist or Catholic or Mormon, or Protestant to be open in public than it is for a Muslim or atheist or gay person.
Of course if you don't bring things up in public there is less likely to be conflict, but that does not mean that there are not presumed social pecking orders in any given society.
It's my point, and my point doesn't have to be your point. I don't go out looking to cry about people over nonsense. if someone wants to rage at others because of what they believe, then maybe they should rethink what they believe. If some wacky "theist" or "atheist" starts spouting what I consider nonsense, then I won't discriminate in not giving a rat's behind. No different that the nut trying to sell me DirecTV every time I walk by the electronics department at Walmart. Why? Because it holds no value to me. Arguments are just that, arguments. Opinions are just that, opinions. You can go round-n-round indefinitely and nobody wins. IMO, it would make more sense for the atheists and theists to focus on what they have in common, then work together to build on those things. Not this "my science can beat up your science" silliness. Or, "I don't believe in God, so you cant" type of thinking. We make choices based on experiences and how we interpret them. Sometimes we get things right and sometimes we're wrong, but that's okay. That's why there are erasers on pencils and a delete button on our keyboards. And it's fine, because that's what's called "life" and it will allows for a constant learning process so that we can grow as individuals and as humans.
December 12, 2018 at 3:21 pm (This post was last modified: December 12, 2018 at 3:23 pm by Bucky Ball.)
(December 12, 2018 at 2:19 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: [quote pid='1867406' dateline='1544637472']
The comment is true, but to say it makes his statement false isn't accurate, because how are brain processes something can depend on how we feel about it and our chosen response. In other words, you're trying to disqualify one part of the process that can affect other parts of it. Two people can experience the same stimuli, have different feelings about it, and their brain may process it completely differently. Example: One person can like what the president said and feel confident or another person can disagree and feel distress, or even feel like it's an attempt at betrayal. Maybe it's something to do with taxes and one person is getting the short end of the stick. Well you might see anger. Maybe they're saving money. They might feel happy and relieved. What applies to one person doesn't necessarily apply to others. I'm guessing Agnostico probably is more left-brained in his approach to life. I couldn't say the same about myself, as I favor the right hemisphere. It doesn't mean you don't use both, but the capacity we use both is different.
Actually the point flew right over your head. Science knows how brains process. OF COURSE they "feel" differently. Those feelings are processed in known parts of the brain.
A process being the same (OBVIOULSY with different inputs) OBVIOULSY will produce different outcomes. Other than being Mr. Obvious, you comment is ignorant and quite useless.
Beliefs and emotion are NOT processed in the same parts of the brain.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell
(December 12, 2018 at 2:19 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: [quote pid='1867406' dateline='1544637472']
The comment is true, but to say it makes his statement false isn't accurate, because how are brain processes something can depend on how we feel about it and our chosen response. In other words, you're trying to disqualify one part of the process that can affect other parts of it. Two people can experience the same stimuli, have different feelings about it, and their brain may process it completely differently. Example: One person can like what the president said and feel confident or another person can disagree and feel distress, or even feel like it's an attempt at betrayal. Maybe it's something to do with taxes and one person is getting the short end of the stick. Well you might see anger. Maybe they're saving money. They might feel happy and relieved. What applies to one person doesn't necessarily apply to others. I'm guessing Agnostico probably is more left-brained in his approach to life. I couldn't say the same about myself, as I favor the right hemisphere. It doesn't mean you don't use both, but the capacity we use both is different.
Actually the point flew right over your head. Science knows how brains process. OF COURSE they "feel" differently. Those feelings are processed in known parts of the brain.
A process being the same (OBVIOULSY with different inputs) OBVIOULSY will produce different outcomes. Other than being Mr. Obvious, you comment is ignorant and quite useless.
Beliefs and emotion are NOT processed in the same parts of the brain.
[/quote]
And you are full of something...
The same stimuli aren't necessarily going to cause the same reaction is different people. Like your nonsense is the equivalent of piece of chalk falling to the floor, but in your mind you're probably dancing around like you said something important. I'm feeling *yawn* a sense of disappointment in how you are trying to fluff your argument while you are probably having a dance party in your brain, feeling like you told me something that held weight as an objection. The point wasn't that we "don't know" where the brain processes things, because we do, but that it didn't invalidate his point. So your conclusion led to B, which was correct, but not C.
![[Image: agnostic-atheist-quadrants.jpg]](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VKscxUZTOto/VOviylxqRoI/AAAAAAAAExs/aZ_Q1rkJlHQ/s1600/agnostic-atheist-quadrants.jpg)
