(January 2, 2019 at 4:28 pm)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote: A lot of atheists, myself included, believe that Jesus might've never existed, not even as a regular human. I'm pretty sure that it happens in most if not all cases of coming out to unsopportive friends and family, that the outedt person is asked whenever they believe that Jesus existed as a person and was a good man. What should they respond? Should they tell the truth or change the subject?

Nobody would care about Jesus if he was just a man, so that's not what's being argued when people argue a historical Jesus. Pretending to argue one thing when you're really arguing something else is dishonest. If Jesus wasn't a miracle man and God, then he's not worth remembering. Arguing that he was a man is beside the point. If people have no faith in their arguments that Jesus performed miracles and was resurrected, they shouldn't waste people's time with pointless claims about a historical Jesus. There were plenty of "historical" people who lived and died. Nobody cares about merely historical people.

Sigh. I have no idea why the historical/mythical jesus debate gets so many people all bent out of shape.

Seems to me there are only 3 real possibilities with a fourth supernatural one.

A. There was a real person, Jesus. Maybe, but the evidence is thin on the ground.

B. The Jesus character is and amalgam of several disparate messianic/apocalyptic jewish prophets wandering the Levant in or around the period in question. We know there were plenty of those.

C. Entire fiction. We know people have been creating fiction for thousands of years, so entirely possible.

The socio-political aspects can, I think, be ignored since they apply equally to any scenario.

Personally, I favour a mix of B and C as most likely. A is least likely. Just my opinion.

That leads us to D. Jesus the man-god. This is, obviously, stupid on it's face as an idea. I think christians know this at some level, thus they go after option A in order to later slippery-slope their way to D. Dishonest tactic, but we know how flexible with the truth believers show themselves to be.

(January 2, 2019 at 9:52 pm)Natachan Wrote:

(January 2, 2019 at 7:22 pm)Mermaid Wrote: I'd lose my job, so I keep it to myself.

This is one thing that genuinely scares me. In college I was an officer for the SSA group, so a google search of my name brought up that fact through the school’s clubs page. Guess how many hits on my resume I got while that was up. I went in and deleted that and most of my social media stuff, setting the rest to private and expunging any mention of the SSA from my name in public areas. All of a sudden my resume started getting takers.

My company is large enough to where I probably wouldn’t get fired (although my political views might convince some to find a reason), but this is a very real concern. It could stall my career, especially since I still need referrals for continuing education credits.

This is quite valid. I am glad you were able to get rid of that stuff. I work in corporate America, and that is absolutely a problem, as much as I hate to admit it.

(January 2, 2019 at 9:52 pm)Natachan Wrote: This is one thing that genuinely scares me. In college I was an officer for the SSA group, so a google search of my name brought up that fact through the school’s clubs page. Guess how many hits on my resume I got while that was up. I went in and deleted that and most of my social media stuff, setting the rest to private and expunging any mention of the SSA from my name in public areas. All of a sudden my resume started getting takers.

My company is large enough to where I probably wouldn’t get fired (although my political views might convince some to find a reason), but this is a very real concern. It could stall my career, especially since I still need referrals for continuing education credits.

Got no idea what this is. Secret Santa's of America don't sound all that bad.

(January 3, 2019 at 6:35 am)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote:

(January 2, 2019 at 5:55 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: Honestly, the question is irrelevant outside of academia. My own knowledge of history is almost non-existent so I don't even feel qualified to have an opinion on whether or not there was a real person who inspired the fiction of the New Testament. Nor does it matter to me.

But what if the others insist on it, how do you respond?

Exactly the same way. I have no more idea if the stories of Jesus were inspired by a real person than I have if the stories of the sun god Ra were inspired by a real person. Insisting that I give an opinion isn't going to change the fact that I don't have one.

"I don't know," is always an acceptable answer to a question. If you are not qualified to answer the question, it's the only acceptable answer.

When asked about Jesus, I'll start off with, you mean Yeshua ?

And then we get into name translation changes.

Then I'll bring up Spiderman, who lives in New York City and whose real name is Peter Parker.

New York City is a real place where millions of people live.
There are probably several real life Peter Parker's that live in NYC.

Those two bits of real life info doesn't mean Spiderman exists or ever existed.

Secular Student Alliance. The local atheist club.

My degree is in engineering and I’m licensed, so to not get hits on my resume is, let’s just say, unusual. But a new engineer out of college does face this. I’m now established enough and my company is large enough to where it’s less likely I’d get fired for it, but it would make my life harder when dealing with certain outside partners, or if I chose to look for a new job. I also need cooperation for continued education if I want to keep my license.

(January 3, 2019 at 11:14 pm)AFTT47 Wrote:

(January 3, 2019 at 6:35 am)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote: But what if the others insist on it, how do you respond?

Exactly the same way. I have no more idea if the stories of Jesus were inspired by a real person than I have if the stories of the sun god Ra were inspired by a real person. Insisting that I give an opinion isn't going to change the fact that I don't have one.

"I don't know," is always an acceptable answer to a question. If you are not qualified to answer the question, it's the only acceptable answer.

Something popped in to my mind. What if someone who works for the church insists that Jesus existed as a man. They might bring the argument that they have knowledge on this field, since they're working in it. I don't wanna make them change their job or faith, so how do I respond to them that I don't know?

From what I've read most modern day historians agree that Jesus did exist, had a ministry and was crucified by the Romans.  As far as the biblical accounts go, it's all a matter of whether you choose to believe the testimonies of the writers or not.

(January 3, 2019 at 8:56 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(January 2, 2019 at 4:28 pm)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote: A lot of atheists, myself included, believe that Jesus might've never existed, not even as a regular human. I'm pretty sure that it happens in most if not all cases of coming out to unsopportive friends and family, that the outedt person is asked whenever they believe that Jesus existed as a person and was a good man. What should they respond? Should they tell the truth or change the subject?

Nobody would care about Jesus if he was just a man, so that's not what's being argued when people argue a historical Jesus.  Pretending to argue one thing when you're really arguing something else is dishonest.  If Jesus wasn't a miracle man and God, then he's not worth remembering.  Arguing that he was a man is beside the point.  If people have no faith in their arguments that Jesus performed miracles and was resurrected, they shouldn't waste people's time with pointless claims about a historical Jesus.  There were plenty of "historical" people who lived and died.  Nobody cares about merely historical people.

I disagree.  People DO seem to care about 'merely historical people'.  We read what they wrote, we read what was written about them, and we quote them to make points.

Socrates, Nietzsche, Shakespeare, Rodin, Twain, Curie, Barton - tons more, none of whom were miracle workers or gods, yet we still discuss them and their contributions to the human condition.

Regarding Jesus, your own Thomas Jefferson didn't for a moment think he was divine, but regarded him as a great moral philosopher.

It seems we can care a great deal about the 'merely historical people'.

Boru