(January 5, 2019 at 3:15 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(January 3, 2019 at 5:50 pm)DoubtingHerFaith Wrote: Well in Christianity in Revelations a bunch of stuff is supposed to happen first, and I guess I never noticed how in the Gospels they seemed to be anticipating it happening during their lifetime! yeah, I really didn't notice and I didn't notice Jesus saying

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“

soo........."Truly" that's a lie..........

Define what you believe the kingdom is.

GC

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(January 4, 2019 at 3:47 pm)alw0992 Wrote: One thing that needs to be remember is that Judaic theology and Christian theology are two different things, not to mention two different religions. Jewish concept of a "messiah" is an earthly ruler and it centers around the Jewish people and Israel. Not a supernatural offspring from an invisible deity with the intent of saving all of humanity. Also for the "messiah" to arrive, certain things have to take place with regards to the state of Israel, Jews, the religion, re-construction of the temple and so on. Not blood moons, four horsemen, not vague (or poor) interpretations of Judaic theology and philosophy, or beings with several eyes, so on and so on. Simple comparative religious studies show that the Judaism and Christianity are just spin offs of one another. Judaism and Christianity are spin offs of the local folk religions. Christianity clams of fulfillment of prophecies to claim legitimacy of it's claims while at same time returns to the polytheistic beliefs of the region and Europe. As time has gone on, Christianity is just a conglomeration local pagan beliefs. Trinity, ritual, divinity, un-speakable names of god, and so on.

Funny thing you have stated, you say Judaism and Christianity are two different religions, the you proceed to say they are spin offs of each other, which would make them intertwined and basically the same, seems you need to believe one or the other. For the Jews the messiah might mean an earthly ruler for them, they have always been an arrogant people the bible shows us this clearly. What else does the Bible teach clearly that the "Messiah" is for all people and this teaching starts in the OT. Another thing the Trinity is mentioned though not by name in the first chapters of Genesis and even affirmed in the NT. This covers thousands of years.

GC

They are different in they they teach two different things; "messiah," soul, after-life, etc. Also in the fact that you have other authoritative texts such as the Talmud and Zohar. Where they are spin-offs is that Christianity cherry picks and misrepresents Judaic theology to attempt to justify its theology. However, most of what is taught in Christianity today is the result of councils, written creeds, adaptions of other religions to gain converts (such as paganism), break away from other larger groups, and so on. Religion is great to read about and research and learn some philosophical insight but there's a point where the rubber meets the road; meaning are you going to follow reason and logic, or be completely true to the faith and suspend all reason; because in the end you can't have both.

(January 7, 2019 at 3:00 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 5, 2019 at 12:18 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: I think we should concede this point. I doubt John actually wrote Revelation, which would render your point invalid, but the lore here seems to be acceptably consistent.  Jesus could have meant that John wouldn't die until he had his vision. Again I doubt this was the intent of what was said but your model does encapsulate it.

Have you even read the book of revelation? Chapter ! verse 1 John self identifies as the author of revelation!

 This is a revelation[a] from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen soon. And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 2 who has told everything he saw. It is the truth that Jesus Christ told him; it is the message from God. 3 Great blessings belong to the person who reads the words of this message from God and to those who hear this message and do what is written in it. There is not much time left.
John Writes to the Churches
4 From John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

So yeah perfect reason to doubt john authorship.. could have been any one named john, bt wait he identifies as "his servant John" meaning He literally served or walked along side Christ which is what this word means. Not a follower in the broader sense of Christianity but the greek word doulos which means slave servant disciple, John...

That said Jesus did say not all of you would pass before you saw me coming in my kingdom again.. let look at how rev 1 is phrased:
 And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 

Meaning while John was alive He literally saw everything in the book that he is about to describe. This by it self full fills Christ's proclamation. 

That said I also think in a linear basis when it comes to the end times. 
Our problem is we do not understand we are in a bubble of time and space and when we die we wake up outside of the bubble being able to see all of it from beginning to end. It is lke holding a DVD now if you where in the movie contained in the DVD you would be apart of that movie's time and space and would have to see thing play out. how eve outside of the dvd you can encapsulate the whole time and space continuum. as you are no apart of the movie tie line. meaning you can see or experience any part of the movie at any point,for you movie time and real world time are not the same. thik lord of the rings. How long do you think they were on their journey to destroy the ring days weeks months? now what of to us? outside their little bubble of time and space? a few hours total?

So who is right frodo when he said it was a long life changing adventure that took some time to complete or the person watch the movie who said the movies has a good pace and it was over before I knew it!

It is all a matter of perspective.as when we die we are pull from this DVD this bubble and placed in the real world. to us it would be instantaneous which is why we have the warning. One minute you are on the toilet mocking God on your favorite web ste next blik of an eye you are standing for Christ in judgement.

So when the bible says His kingdom is near it is speaking to your perception of how things will play out. As time is relative.

No, it is a matter of old mythology, not perspective. The ancient Romans falsely believed in Apollo as much as you believe in Jesus. The ancient Egyptians falsely believed in Ra, Osiris, Horus and Isis as much as Christians believe in Moses and Mary. 

What is especially insidious about the Abrahamic three in Jewish, Christian and Islamic traditions, is all of them have an idea of a final era. The idea that a hero will come down in the end and save the loyalist and punish everyone else.

Many Jews don't believe in a hell, but still think their savior has yet to come. Muslims do think the 12th Imam, or final generation Imam will have the final say.

While every religion in the world has it's concepts of the end of everything, only the traditions of Abraham have an incentive to rush the end quicker. 

The good thing is there is no afterlife, no heaven, no hell. The bad thing is humans mistake old mythology as fact, and instead of accepting it as mythology they'd rather retrofit after the fact to rush the end, which is not a prophecy but a self fulfilling push to an end to claim factual correctness, having nothing to do with objectivity, but mere human tribalism.

(January 7, 2019 at 3:00 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 5, 2019 at 12:18 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: I think we should concede this point. I doubt John actually wrote Revelation, which would render your point invalid, but the lore here seems to be acceptably consistent.  Jesus could have meant that John wouldn't die until he had his vision. Again I doubt this was the intent of what was said but your model does encapsulate it.

Have you even read the book of revelation? Chapter ! verse 1 John self identifies as the author of revelation!

 This is a revelation[a] from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen soon. And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 2 who has told everything he saw. It is the truth that Jesus Christ told him; it is the message from God. 3 Great blessings belong to the person who reads the words of this message from God and to those who hear this message and do what is written in it. There is not much time left.
John Writes to the Churches
4 From John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

So yeah perfect reason to doubt john authorship.. could have been any one named john, bt wait he identifies as "his servant John" meaning He literally served or walked along side Christ which is what this word means. Not a follower in the broader sense of Christianity but the greek word doulos which means slave servant disciple, John...

That said Jesus did say not all of you would pass before you saw me coming in my kingdom again.. let look at how rev 1 is phrased:
 And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 

Meaning while John was alive He literally saw everything in the book that he is about to describe. This by it self full fills Christ's proclamation. 

That said I also think in a linear basis when it comes to the end times. 
Our problem is we do not understand we are in a bubble of time and space and when we die we wake up outside of the bubble being able to see all of it from beginning to end. It is lke holding a DVD now if you where in the movie contained in the DVD you would be apart of that movie's time and space and would have to see thing play out. how eve outside of the dvd you can encapsulate the whole time and space continuum. as you are no apart of the movie tie line. meaning you can see or experience any part of the movie at any point,for you movie time and real world time are not the same. thik lord of the rings. How long do you think they were on their journey to destroy the ring days weeks months? now what of to us? outside their little bubble of time and space? a few hours total?

So who is right frodo when he said it was a long life changing adventure that took some time to complete or the person watch the movie who said the movies has a good pace and it was over before I knew it!

It is all a matter of perspective.as when we die we are pull from this DVD this bubble and placed in the real world. to us it would be instantaneous which is why we have the warning. One minute you are on the toilet mocking God on your favorite web ste next blik of an eye you are standing for Christ in judgement.

So when the bible says His kingdom is near it is speaking to your perception of how things will play out. As time is relative.

So you're completely unaware that half the Pauline epistles were not written by Paul despite being identified as such? Use evidence. Word selection, sentence formation, writing style. Actual analysis. Forgery was easy back then and was the best way to get your message out.

(January 7, 2019 at 3:29 pm)alw0992 Wrote:

(January 5, 2019 at 3:15 am)Godscreated Wrote: Define what you believe the kingdom is.

GC

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Funny thing you have stated, you say Judaism and Christianity are two different religions, the you proceed to say they are spin offs of each other, which would make them intertwined and basically the same, seems you need to believe one or the other. For the Jews the messiah might mean an earthly ruler for them, they have always been an arrogant people the bible shows us this clearly. What else does the Bible teach clearly that the "Messiah" is for all people and this teaching starts in the OT. Another thing the Trinity is mentioned though not by name in the first chapters of Genesis and even affirmed in the NT. This covers thousands of years.

GC

They are different in they they teach two different things; "messiah," soul, after-life, etc. Also in the fact that you have other authoritative texts such as the Talmud and Zohar. Where they are spin-offs is that Christianity cherry picks and misrepresents Judaic theology to attempt to justify its theology. However, most of what is taught in Christianity today is the result of councils, written creeds, adaptions of other religions to gain converts (such as paganism), break away from other larger groups, and so on. Religion is great to read about and research and learn some philosophical insight but there's a point where the rubber meets the road; meaning are you going to follow reason and logic, or be completely true to the faith and suspend all reason; because in the end you can't have both.

 First off you did not answer my first question, this may not seem important to you but it holds truth in Christianity.
Secondly the Bible is strictly Christian because it shows how the OT and NT are intertwined, you can't separate them, each would lose much of it's value.  The bible contains no adoption from any pagan religions, the reason some people see pagan things in the Bible is simple, they do not read the Bible with the intent to learn. faith has nothing to do with suspending reason and yes you can have both, I know this because I have both in my everyday Christian life.

GC

Matt 24:4-14 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

John 8:23-24 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

(January 8, 2019 at 2:03 am)rtwined Godscreated Wrote:

(January 7, 2019 at 3:29 pm)alw0992 Wrote: They are different in they they teach two different things; "messiah," soul, after-life, etc. Also in the fact that you have other authoritative texts such as the Talmud and Zohar. Where they are spin-offs is that Christianity cherry picks and misrepresents Judaic theology to attempt to justify its theology. However, most of what is taught in Christianity today is the result of councils, written creeds, adaptions of other religions to gain converts (such as paganism), break away from other larger groups, and so on. Religion is great to read about and research and learn some philosophical insight but there's a point where the rubber meets the road; meaning are you going to follow reason and logic, or be completely true to the faith and suspend all reason; because in the end you can't have both.

 First off you did not answer my first question, this may not seem important to you but it holds truth in Christianity.
Secondly the Bible is strictly Christian because it shows how the OT and NT are intertwined, you can't separate them, each would lose much of it's value.  The bible contains no adoption from any pagan religions, the reason some people see pagan things in the Bible is simple, they do not read the Bible with the intent to learn. faith has nothing to do with suspending reason and yes you can have both, I know this because I have both in my everyday Christian life.

GC

Kingdom? There can't be one due to human nature. A utopia would be difficult due to, again, human nature. As far as a kingdom as a Christian construct, can't happen due to it having to being created using only one source, which is highly debatable. What makes a Christian idea of a kingdom more valid or real versus a kingdom as defined by other religions as well as other Christian denominations? Because we all know that deep down each denominations thinks they're right and the others are wrong. I have to disagree with you, the OT isn't less valid without the NT because there's an entire religion based on the OT. Only reason they appear to be intertwined is because the NT can't stand on it's own and has to use broad interpretations to attempt to make it work. Also, yes, comparative religious studies show that Christianity does have adaption of pagan traditions. Trinity, immortality of the soul, hell, iconography, belief in saints, hymns, robes, crosses, and so on. As the religion moved to other countries, regional beliefs got woven into Christianity.

(January 7, 2019 at 6:20 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:

(January 7, 2019 at 3:00 pm)Drich Wrote: Have you even read the book of revelation? Chapter ! verse 1 John self identifies as the author of revelation!

 This is a revelation[a] from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen soon. And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 2 who has told everything he saw. It is the truth that Jesus Christ told him; it is the message from God. 3 Great blessings belong to the person who reads the words of this message from God and to those who hear this message and do what is written in it. There is not much time left.
John Writes to the Churches
4 From John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

So yeah perfect reason to doubt john authorship.. could have been any one named john, bt wait he identifies as "his servant John" meaning He literally served or walked along side Christ which is what this word means. Not a follower in the broader sense of Christianity but the greek word doulos which means slave servant disciple, John...

That said Jesus did say not all of you would pass before you saw me coming in my kingdom again.. let look at how rev 1 is phrased:
 And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 

Meaning while John was alive He literally saw everything in the book that he is about to describe. This by it self full fills Christ's proclamation. 

That said I also think in a linear basis when it comes to the end times. 
Our problem is we do not understand we are in a bubble of time and space and when we die we wake up outside of the bubble being able to see all of it from beginning to end. It is lke holding a DVD now if you where in the movie contained in the DVD you would be apart of that movie's time and space and would have to see thing play out. how eve outside of the dvd you can encapsulate the whole time and space continuum. as you are no apart of the movie tie line. meaning you can see or experience any part of the movie at any point,for you movie time and real world time are not the same. thik lord of the rings. How long do you think they were on their journey to destroy the ring days weeks months? now what of to us? outside their little bubble of time and space? a few hours total?

So who is right frodo when he said it was a long life changing adventure that took some time to complete or the person watch the movie who said the movies has a good pace and it was over before I knew it!

It is all a matter of perspective.as when we die we are pull from this DVD this bubble and placed in the real world. to us it would be instantaneous which is why we have the warning. One minute you are on the toilet mocking God on your favorite web ste next blik of an eye you are standing for Christ in judgement.

So when the bible says His kingdom is near it is speaking to your perception of how things will play out. As time is relative.

So you're completely unaware that half the Pauline epistles were not written by Paul despite being identified as such?  Use evidence. Word selection, sentence formation, writing style.  Actual analysis. Forgery was easy back then and was the best way to get your message out.

I'm well aware of the arguments.. however a simple 'nut-huh' from some egg head who doesn't like what Paul had to said or can not reconcile Spiritual growth and how it reflects in his letters and teaching mean nothing to me. as people like you can not wrap your heads around the idea that Christianity is not a linear religion it is not the same for everyone. that everything is judged on a curb based on your own personal understanding and relationship. Meaning if you are one who can not see all 30K forums of Christian as all potentially being legitimate form of worship, you are not in a position to tell me who did and did not write the bible. So excuse me for not just chasing after ever turnip truck you guys want to ride just because it tells you what you want to hear

(January 7, 2019 at 3:34 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 7, 2019 at 3:00 pm)Drich Wrote: Have you even read the book of revelation? Chapter ! verse 1 John self identifies as the author of revelation!

 This is a revelation[a] from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen soon. And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 2 who has told everything he saw. It is the truth that Jesus Christ told him; it is the message from God. 3 Great blessings belong to the person who reads the words of this message from God and to those who hear this message and do what is written in it. There is not much time left.
John Writes to the Churches
4 From John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

So yeah perfect reason to doubt john authorship.. could have been any one named john, bt wait he identifies as "his servant John" meaning He literally served or walked along side Christ which is what this word means. Not a follower in the broader sense of Christianity but the greek word doulos which means slave servant disciple, John...

That said Jesus did say not all of you would pass before you saw me coming in my kingdom again.. let look at how rev 1 is phrased:
 And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 

Meaning while John was alive He literally saw everything in the book that he is about to describe. This by it self full fills Christ's proclamation. 

That said I also think in a linear basis when it comes to the end times. 
Our problem is we do not understand we are in a bubble of time and space and when we die we wake up outside of the bubble being able to see all of it from beginning to end. It is lke holding a DVD now if you where in the movie contained in the DVD you would be apart of that movie's time and space and would have to see thing play out. how eve outside of the dvd you can encapsulate the whole time and space continuum. as you are no apart of the movie tie line. meaning you can see or experience any part of the movie at any point,for you movie time and real world time are not the same. thik lord of the rings. How long do you think they were on their journey to destroy the ring days weeks months? now what of to us? outside their little bubble of time and space? a few hours total?

So who is right frodo when he said it was a long life changing adventure that took some time to complete or the person watch the movie who said the movies has a good pace and it was over before I knew it!

It is all a matter of perspective.as when we die we are pull from this DVD this bubble and placed in the real world. to us it would be instantaneous which is why we have the warning. One minute you are on the toilet mocking God on your favorite web ste next blik of an eye you are standing for Christ in judgement.

So when the bible says His kingdom is near it is speaking to your perception of how things will play out. As time is relative.

No, it is a matter of old mythology, not perspective. The ancient Romans falsely believed in Apollo as much as you believe in Jesus. The ancient Egyptians falsely believed in Ra, Osiris, Horus and Isis as much as Christians believe in Moses and Mary. 

What is especially insidious about the Abrahamic three in Jewish, Christian and Islamic traditions, is all of them have an idea of a final era. The idea that a hero will come down in the end and save the loyalist and punish everyone else.

Many Jews don't believe in a hell, but still think their savior has yet to come. Muslims do think the 12th Imam, or final generation Imam will have the final say.

While every religion in the world has it's concepts of the end of everything, only the traditions of Abraham have an incentive to rush the end quicker. 

The good thing is there is no afterlife, no heaven, no hell. The bad thing is humans mistake old mythology as fact, and instead of accepting it as mythology they'd rather retrofit after the fact to rush the end, which is not a prophecy but a self fulfilling push to an end to claim factual correctness, having nothing to do with objectivity, but mere human tribalism.

Here's the thing with that if you can get you mind working past stero types. Not all religions work the same, meaning no religion out side of Christianity put one (a believer) one on one before it's primary deity, with out any prophet priest or intermediary.. This is what Christianity promises!! All religions make promises and all religions deliver on said promises, however most religious promises are so vague or based on what soceity it self can do (off protection from state enemies provide food when in doubt provide some sort of collective morality and a sense of justice in one form or fashion.) it seems that their God is making good. however when society fails so too fails the religion! Christian has not failed because it makes good on it's primary promise more times than not.

Which supports and under girds all of the things you want to pretend does not exist.

Look at what you have to do making all the unique religions of the world look and behave the same in order for your assumption to work... do you honestly think ALL religions are the same? do you think all people who do not think as you do are stupid?

I havee studied lots of religions over 25 years and I found every religion is powered by something. whether it be soceity God or satan, as the devil can also make some promised good as well, but all religions have a force to full fill it's promises like it or not. just need to understand what religion is to provide.

(January 8, 2019 at 11:18 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 7, 2019 at 6:20 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: So you're completely unaware that half the Pauline epistles were not written by Paul despite being identified as such?  Use evidence. Word selection, sentence formation, writing style.  Actual analysis. Forgery was easy back then and was the best way to get your message out.

I'm well aware of the arguments.. however a simple 'nut-huh' from some egg head who doesn't like what Paul had to said or can not reconcile Spiritual growth and how it reflects in his letters and teaching mean nothing to me. as people like you can not wrap your heads around the idea that Christianity is not a linear religion it is not the same for everyone. that everything is judged on a curb based on your own personal understanding and relationship. Meaning if you are one who can not see all 30K forums of Christian as all potentially being legitimate form of worship, you are not in a position to tell me who did and did not write the bible. So excuse me for not just chasing after ever turnip truck you guys want to ride just because it tells you what you want to hear

I ask for evidence and you ramble about spiritual bullshit.

(January 8, 2019 at 1:18 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:

(January 8, 2019 at 11:18 am)Drich Wrote: I'm well aware of the arguments.. however a simple 'nut-huh' from some egg head who doesn't like what Paul had to said or can not reconcile Spiritual growth and how it reflects in his letters and teaching mean nothing to me. as people like you can not wrap your heads around the idea that Christianity is not a linear religion it is not the same for everyone. that everything is judged on a curb based on your own personal understanding and relationship. Meaning if you are one who can not see all 30K forums of Christian as all potentially being legitimate form of worship, you are not in a position to tell me who did and did not write the bible. So excuse me for not just chasing after ever turnip truck you guys want to ride just because it tells you what you want to hear

I ask for evidence and you ramble about spiritual bullshit.

Again the evidence is the maturing of the writing and how it reflects the ever growing nature of how we are to live and work in this religion. It is intuitive and logically progression one by the very nature of his letter could almost come to the same conclusions he did given a strong enough bond with the Holy Spirit. the fact that you do not see this again disqualifies you from judging what you clearly do not understand in even the most basic of ways.
If you still want evidence and still do not understand you are not smart enough to recognize it I will again point out Paul the subject of your objection did not have anything to do with the subject being discussed.