(January 13, 2019 at 11:45 am)Acrobat Wrote: The question was whether such beliefs, beliefs in moral realism, are equivalent to beliefs in invisible donkeys, and fairies, not whether such beliefs are true.

They're all part of the same package. 
Actually they are not the same. The moral argument is demonstrably false, thus LOWER in rank than fairies and sparkly unicorns, which cannot be demonstrated to be false.

Quote:Which Christian position? What’s the position of Eastern Orthodox?
In reality this position differs among different Christian sects, even those considered orthodox, the view Catholics different than that of Calvinist, the view of Lutherans different than Eastern Orthodox. Herbert McCabe’s view different than John Piper’s.

Which just proves that if they need 33,000 sects to encompass their views, then there is no such thing as "Christianity", (or Roman Catholicism for that matter). 

McCabe's view is NOT what the official Roman position is, (which is written in the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church). He is NOT "representative" of anything. 
He held no official (magisterial) position in the church, (except being a priest). He is not "installed" as an authority on anything, and anyone can see the WIDE difference between him and official Roman stances, on many things.
Type in "Jesus came to save" here : http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/tex...earch&s=SS
He did NOT just come to be "human". The creeds of the RC Church over and over again proclaim his mission and concurrent divinity, (although only one of the gospels does).

BTW, nice try there sport. My educated view of the various positions of the various church bodies in no way rests on being an "atheist", (which I am not).

(January 13, 2019 at 8:15 am)Acrobat Wrote: There’s a variety of orthodox view of Atonement. Eastern Orthodox subscribe to a moral view, that Christ died as moral model for the rest of us. Secondly the conception of original sin, fallen world need not be statement about how the world ended up this way, but the way the world is, regardless if it was this way from the beginning or proceeding some events at the start of history. The world in a variety of religions, appears broken, off the mark, not as whole or as good as it ought to be.

Here’s one particular  renowned catholic theologian Herbert McCabe’s expression of the meaning of Christ’s death:

“‘The story of Jesus is what the eternal trinitarian life of God looks like when it is projected on to the screen of history, and this means on the screen not only of human history but of sinful human history.
The obedience of Jesus to the Father, his obedience to his mission, is just what the eternal procession of the Son from the Father appears as in history. His obedience consists in nothing else but being in history,  human.
Jesus did nothing but be the Son as human; that his life was so colorful, eventful, and tragic is simply because of what being human involves in our world.
We for the most part shy off being human because if we are really human we will be crucified.
If we didn’t know that before, we know it now; the crucifixion of Jesus was simply the dramatic manifestation of the sort of world we have made, the showing up of the world, the unmasking of what we call, traditionally, original sin.

There is no need whatever for peculiar theories about the Father deliberately putting his Son to death.
There is no need for any theory about the death of Jesus.
It doesn’t need any explanation once you know that he was human in our world.
Jesus died in obedience to the Father’s will simply in the sense that the Father will the Son to be human in our world.’

---

(January 10, 2019 at 2:48 pm)Jehanne Wrote: God could convince me that he exists; I have a perspective that is sometimes referred to as "non-resistive, non-belief".  If God truly exists, I would be delighted to meet his/her/its acquaintance.

But, I really believe that God, god(s), etc., are in the same category as fairies, unicorns and invisible talking donkeys, and I see no reason to waste what little and precious time that I have in this life, which is the only life that I have to live.

How about belief in a creative order, a reality that posses objective moral values, a transcendent moral reality. That the wrong I perceive exists independently of myself and other such the yellow of my wife’s dress, or the existence of other minds.

Would this also fall into a belief in invisible donkeys, and fairies?

Yes.

(January 13, 2019 at 12:51 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(January 13, 2019 at 11:45 am)Acrobat Wrote: The question was whether such beliefs, beliefs in moral realism, are equivalent to beliefs in invisible donkeys, and fairies, not whether such beliefs are true.

They're all part of the same package. 

Quote:Which Christian position? What’s the position of Eastern Orthodox?
In reality this position differs among different Christian sects, even those considered orthodox, the view Catholics different than that of Calvinist, the view of Lutherans different than Eastern Orthodox. Herbert McCabe’s view different than John Piper’s.

Which just proves that if they need 33,000 sects to encompass their views, then there is no such thing as "Christianity", (or Roman Catholicism for that matter). 

McCabe's view is NOT what the official Roman position is, (which is written in the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church). He is NOT "representative" of anything. 
He held no official (magisterial) position in the church, (except being a priest). He is not "installed" as an authority on anything, and anyone can see the WIDE difference between him and official Roman stances, on many things.
Type in "Jesus came to save" here : http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/tex...earch&s=SS
He did NOT just come to be "human". The creeds of the RC Church over and over again proclaim his mission and concurrent divinity, (although only one of the gospels does).

BTW, nice try there sport. My educated view of the various positions of the various church bodies in no way rests on being an "atheist", (which I am not).

It seems you’re one of those who like to argue for arguements sake. The OP asked what do moderates think Jesus died for, I supplied some moderate views.

Regardless of what you think the catholic view is, which I’m doubtful any catholic would agree with.

(January 13, 2019 at 1:28 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 13, 2019 at 12:51 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: They're all part of the same package. 


Which just proves that if they need 33,000 sects to encompass their views, then there is no such thing as "Christianity", (or Roman Catholicism for that matter). 

McCabe's view is NOT what the official Roman position is, (which is written in the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church). He is NOT "representative" of anything. 
He held no official (magisterial) position in the church, (except being a priest). He is not "installed" as an authority on anything, and anyone can see the WIDE difference between him and official Roman stances, on many things.
Type in "Jesus came to save" here : http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/tex...earch&s=SS
He did NOT just come to be "human". The creeds of the RC Church over and over again proclaim his mission and concurrent divinity, (although only one of the gospels does).

BTW, nice try there sport. My educated view of the various positions of the various church bodies in no way rests on being an "atheist",  (which I am not).

It seems you’re one of those who like to argue for arguements sake. The OP asked what do moderates think Jesus died for, I supplied some moderate views.

Regardless of what you think the catholic view is, which I’m doubtful any catholic would agree with.

YOU introduced McCabe, not me. A heretical view in Catholicism. 
Argument is not spelled "arguement".

So you're saying Catholics do not agree with the Roman Catholic Catechism ... LMAO. 
I see you really know nothing of Catholicism. 
You supplied HERETICAL views, perhaps your personal views ??  No Christian says Jesus came merely "to be human". 
If that were true, any of the many other wandering preacher/miracle workers would have sufficed.

Catholics EVERY DAY, including today, say they are literally re-enacting, .. "re-enact" the SACRIFICE (the mass) which Jesus was sent to accomplish.

(January 13, 2019 at 2:13 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(January 13, 2019 at 1:28 pm)Acrobat Wrote: It seems you’re one of those who like to argue for arguements sake. The OP asked what do moderates think Jesus died for, I supplied some moderate views.

Regardless of what you think the catholic view is, which I’m doubtful any catholic would agree with.

YOU introduced McCabe, not me. A heretical view in Catholicism. 
Argument is not spelled "arguement".

So you're saying Catholics do not agree with the Roman Catholic Catechism ... LMAO. 
I see you really know nothing of Catholicism. 
You supplied HERETICAL views, perhaps your personal views ??  No Christian says Jesus came merely "to be human". 
If that were true, any of the many other wandering preacher/miracle workers would have sufficed.

Catholics EVERY DAY, including today, say they are literally re-enacting, .. "re-enact" the SACRIFICE (the mass) which Jesus was sent to accomplish.

Today's "heresy" is tomorrow's dogma.

Francis has already changed the CCC with respect to the death penalty; he or a future Pope can do the same with respect to any belief they want to. It's all about the money.

(January 13, 2019 at 2:13 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(January 13, 2019 at 1:28 pm)Acrobat Wrote: It seems you’re one of those who like to argue for arguements sake. The OP asked what do moderates think Jesus died for, I supplied some moderate views.

Regardless of what you think the catholic view is, which I’m doubtful any catholic would agree with.

YOU introduced McCabe, not me. A heretical view in Catholicism. 
Argument is not spelled "arguement".

So you're saying Catholics do not agree with the Roman Catholic Catechism ... LMAO. 
I see you really know nothing of Catholicism. 
You supplied HERETICAL views, perhaps your personal views ??  No Christian says Jesus came merely "to be human". 
If that were true, any of the many other wandering preacher/miracle workers would have sufficed.

Catholics EVERY DAY, including today, say they are literally re-enacting, .. "re-enact" the SACRIFICE (the mass) which Jesus was sent to accomplish.

lol?
McCabe’s is considered one of the great catholic theologians, is hardly considered a heretic, especially by Catholics. Unless of course you as an atheist know what Catholics consider heritical more so than Catholics.

It just proves more your ignorance of Catholicism.

---

(January 13, 2019 at 1:24 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(January 13, 2019 at 8:15 am)Acrobat Wrote: There’s a variety of orthodox view of Atonement. Eastern Orthodox subscribe to a moral view, that Christ died as moral model for the rest of us. Secondly the conception of original sin, fallen world need not be statement about how the world ended up this way, but the way the world is, regardless if it was this way from the beginning or proceeding some events at the start of history. The world in a variety of religions, appears broken, off the mark, not as whole or as good as it ought to be.

Here’s one particular  renowned catholic theologian Herbert McCabe’s expression of the meaning of Christ’s death:

“‘The story of Jesus is what the eternal trinitarian life of God looks like when it is projected on to the screen of history, and this means on the screen not only of human history but of sinful human history.
The obedience of Jesus to the Father, his obedience to his mission, is just what the eternal procession of the Son from the Father appears as in history. His obedience consists in nothing else but being in history,  human.
Jesus did nothing but be the Son as human; that his life was so colorful, eventful, and tragic is simply because of what being human involves in our world.
We for the most part shy off being human because if we are really human we will be crucified.
If we didn’t know that before, we know it now; the crucifixion of Jesus was simply the dramatic manifestation of the sort of world we have made, the showing up of the world, the unmasking of what we call, traditionally, original sin.

There is no need whatever for peculiar theories about the Father deliberately putting his Son to death.
There is no need for any theory about the death of Jesus.
It doesn’t need any explanation once you know that he was human in our world.
Jesus died in obedience to the Father’s will simply in the sense that the Father will the Son to be human in our world.’

---

How about belief in a creative order, a reality that posses objective moral values, a transcendent moral reality. That the wrong I perceive exists independently of myself and other such the yellow of my wife’s dress, or the existence of other minds.

Would this also fall into a belief in invisible donkeys, and fairies?

Yes.

Coo, if all it takes to believe in the equivalent of invisible unicorns, is belief in moral realism, that there’s something truly wrong about slavery, the holocaust, then I’m proud card carrying member of the unicorn club. Nice to meet you.

(January 13, 2019 at 5:54 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Coo, if all it takes to believe in the equivalent of invisible unicorns, is belief in moral realism, that there’s something truly wrong about slavery, the holocaust, then I’m proud card carrying member of the unicorn club. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you, too!

(January 13, 2019 at 5:54 pm)Acrobat Wrote: lol?
McCabe’s is considered one of the great catholic theologians, is hardly considered a heretic, especially by Catholics. Unless of course you as an atheist know what Catholics consider heritical more so than Catholics.

It just proves more your ignorance of Catholicism.

LOL. Yes LMAO LOL Whatever your background and education, ... you're totally wrong. 
Most people never even heard of him. 
I know more about Catholicism than you do, and in fact more than most Catholics. 
He's not even on the list. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ca...heologians

I already told you, I'm not an atheist ... and your biased ignorant position that being an atheist actually has anything
to do with the state of one's knowledge is hilarious. Are you like 12 ? 

Having BEEN a Catholic, almost anyone is ripe for disbelief.  

It's "heretical", not "heritical". 

13 % of Americans are ex- Catholics. It's a "thing".
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...catholics/
https://www.christianpost.com/news/major...veals.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts...a9ea99653d
60 % of white Catholics voted for Trump : http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...-analysis/

(January 13, 2019 at 7:53 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(January 13, 2019 at 5:54 pm)Acrobat Wrote: lol?
McCabe’s is considered one of the great catholic theologians, is hardly considered a heretic, especially by Catholics. Unless of course you as an atheist know what Catholics consider heritical more so than Catholics.

It just proves more your ignorance of Catholicism.

LOL. Yes LMAO LOL Whatever your background and education, ... you're totally wrong. 
Most people never even heard of him. 
I know more about Catholicism than you do, and in fact more than most Catholics. 
He's not even on the list. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ca...heologians

I already told you, I'm not an atheist ... and your biased ignorant position that being an atheist actually has anything
to do with the state of one's knowledge is hilarious. Are you like 12 ? 

Having BEEN a Catholic, almost anyone is ripe for disbelief.  

It's "heretical", not "heritical". 

13 % of Americans are ex- Catholics. It's a "thing".
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...catholics/
https://www.christianpost.com/news/major...veals.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts...a9ea99653d
60 % of white Catholics voted for Trump : http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...-analysis/

I'm an ex-Catholic, married and confirmed in the Church. Now, I'm an atheist.

(January 13, 2019 at 7:53 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(January 13, 2019 at 5:54 pm)Acrobat Wrote: lol?
McCabe’s is considered one of the great catholic theologians, is hardly considered a heretic, especially by Catholics. Unless of course you as an atheist know what Catholics consider heritical more so than Catholics.

It just proves more your ignorance of Catholicism.

LOL. Yes LMAO LOL Whatever your background and education, ... you're totally wrong. 
Most people never even heard of him. 
I know more about Catholicism than you do, and in fact more than most Catholics. 
He's not even on the list. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ca...heologians

I already told you, I'm not an atheist ... and your biased ignorant position that being an atheist actually has anything
to do with the state of one's knowledge is hilarious. Are you like 12 ? 

Having BEEN a Catholic, almost anyone is ripe for disbelief.  

It's "heretical", not "heritical". 

13 % of Americans are ex- Catholics. It's a "thing".
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...catholics/
https://www.christianpost.com/news/major...veals.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts...a9ea99653d
60 % of white Catholics voted for Trump : http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...-analysis/

He was a catholic priest and theologian for over 50 years, and you accused him of being a heretic, a charge no catholic has leveled at him.

I’d take the opinion of the Catholic Church on who or what they consider heritical, over some random atheist/non-catholic on the internet, lol.