(October 3, 2011 at 6:55 pm)Napoleon Wrote:

(October 3, 2011 at 6:35 pm)aleialoura Wrote: The sad thing is, she really thinks her points on these issues are righteous.

Don't they all?

Doesn't everyone?

Thought for today

Quote: Beware of self righteous indignation,it has the nasty habit or turning around and biting you on the arse ( TS Shagnasty)

(October 3, 2011 at 7:27 pm)padraic Wrote: Doesn't everyone?

No.

(October 3, 2011 at 10:48 am)frankiej Wrote: I don't like how you use the word "wrong"... It has bad connotations in this subject.

You're right. Perhaps I should continue to use incorrect, instead.

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(October 3, 2011 at 11:27 am)ElDinero Wrote: I've tried, Nap. I've tried three times to illustrate this. But no, the ding-dong isn't supposed to go up the shitpipe, you can't make babies there, ergo homosexuality is FUCKING IMMORAL.

Salty, how do you take yourself seriously when saying stuff like this? You are supposed to be explaining why something is immoral. What is the immoral action being performed in a homosexual relationship? If it's the fact that they're having sex for pleasure and not procreation, then they don't have the market cornered. If it's that they can't procreate full stop, then by this logic we should ostracise any members of society who cannot conceive naturally, because they're useless to what is apparently the only point of having a relationship, to be baby factories.

Wake up. Still waiting to hear what the immoral action is. Are you ever going to tell us what it is?

Go to dictionary.com and you will find the definition for moral is : of or concerned with right conduct.

The definition of homosexual is: a person sexually attracted to the same gender.

Right conduct can be determined by several things:
1. Religious belief
2. Family upbringing
3. Society
4. Your conscience
5. Circle of Influence

For something to be immoral it must oppose at least one of these.

Society deemed homosexual behavior immoral for quite a while and it is still not an accepted practice. I've had people that are not religious tell me they disagree as well, but what we both agree on, is that we cannot and will not make them change, they need to want to change. But to say "nothing is wrong" is to 1. Be deceived by society's view of moral behavior, the same society that killed slaves if one white woman claimed to have been looked at funny, the same society that said we had separate but equal schools, hospitals etc, the same society that expected women to stay in their place...society's idea of what is right changes like the seasons, and the person that stands against it is less than human. 2. Be deceived by the heart instead of the logic that tells us that two people of the same gender don't match up, instead you point to animals like homosexuals can't control themselves when they go into heat for mating season. I doubt they'd be happy with that comparison. Also, you will note that same gender encounters among animals isn't common, so if it's uncommon, it's unnatural.

concerning the right conduct again.
1. The bible states it is perverse.
2. If it was right in the family upbringing people wouldn't need to "come out of the closet."
3. People are still against it, ask my brother in law, we can't talk about it around the family.
4. There are homosexual people who are not comfortable with this desire in their own minds, some commit suicide, some hide it their whole lives and marry a woman to practice in secret, some refuse to practice and some practice.
5. If it was right it wouldn't be difficult to tell friends that you're gay and it wouldn't ruin relationships in families.

Whether you feel it is right conduct or otherwise, there are plenty of people who think it is immoral. As was stated, there are still people that think it's immoral for interracial marriage, I know this, I caused quite a stir when they found out I was Black. In the end, thinking something is immoral and pushing your beliefs on someone else are two different things. My brother in law is gay and I'm against it, but I don't make it my business to state how I feel about their relationship unless asked, and I don't make it a priority to act in a way that makes them uncomfortable or hurt or judged.

All of you seem to have this idea that I go around telling people what to do. You're mistaken. I came into this thread I noticed that el Dinero asked a question and I addressed all sexual issues, because a lot of Christians are involved in fornication and they think they have a right to be disgusted with people who are involved in homosexuality. I think all of the sexual sins are a deviation from right conduct, therefore immoral. I have practiced immoral sexual behavior so I don't come after people about it, because the bible says, in the same measure that you judge others, you will be judged. So I usually keep all this to myself, but with the way you all are reacting, it seems like I stop people in the street...calm down.

(October 3, 2011 at 12:12 pm)searchingforanswers Wrote: As a black person (I'm also black btw. random info haha) don't you see the problem with calling homosexuality wrong simply because it's different from the common sexual preference? Seriously, I don't understand. It's discrimination based on sexual preference. Racism is discrimination based on race. You can't help if your born black, you can't help if your born white. You can't help if your born gay, you can't help if your born straight. The whole "they cant make babies"argument is useless when you consider the fact that we still have heterosexuals. So seriously, other than god forbidding it, what is so bad about homosexuality? Like morally bad, causing harm to others. Not "ew. that's not normal." Because that's just discrimination.

The argument "you can't help that you're born gay" isn't accurate. I admit that some people are born with a more potent desire to be sexually involved with the same gender than others, but it does nothing to define them. What you do in a bedroom with another person is not who you are. Also, people who practice homosexuality aren't always gay. Homosexuality is an attraction (look it up), it's not a state of being, the gay community has created a culture, but it was not always present, Blacks have always had a culture because we were collected from many countries and formed the black American culture through our struggles. In addition, this idea that "gay people can't help themselves" is a sad excuse for not owning up to your decisions. What do you think my husband would say if he caught me with another man and I said, "I was born this way, I couldn't help it, it's who I am." That's not entirely true. I may have been born with the desire to flirt and be around many men, but I choose how far I will allow those desires to go, no one twists my arm to sleep around, no one tells me to have sexual thoughts about someone, no one forces me to enter a room, take off my clothes...etc. Homosexuality is an attraction that ends in a choice; I will act on this feeling or I won't act on this feeling. People choose for themselves, just like I choose to be committed to my husband because it is immoral for me to find another partner and have a romance with them and sleep with them.

Really, it's very annoying for people to compare blackness to homosexuality because you'll notice that blackness has nothing to do with actions, but everything to do with what is visibly seen. Homosexuality is based on desire and then acted upon (this is not a private view, call the makers of dictionary.com and see if they'll change their definition to include love and romance I don't think they will). It is only visible if people conform to the standards the gay culture that has been created from the gay community, otherwise we would never know, but Blacks aren't like that, are they? By adopting a new walk, a new hair style, a new way of talking or some kind of fashion it doesn't change the fact that I'm Black does it? Do you think the KKK would refrain from attacking me because I'm wearing a blue dress? "Ohhh I see, you're a part of the white culture now, we like blue." That's ridiculous, their behavior is based on their views of the inferiority of people with dark skin whether black, Indian, Mexican or whatever, they also don't like homosexuals, but how will they know if their behavior is the same as anyone's? That just doesn't work for Blacks.

As you will notice, moral issues revolve around right conduct, not if they cause harm to others. The decision to have sex with a corpse is immoral, but causes no harm to others. The decision to steal from people is immoral, but it does no harm to others. The decision to lie to people is immoral, but it does no harm to others. So let's put this "it doesn't hurt anyone" thinking behind us, things can be deemed immoral without effecting someone personally and without bringing harm.

Saw a beautiful LARGE shovel in the Hardware store on the weekend salty....I can have it sent to you.

"Moral Issues" are a commonly accepted idea construct of a society...please don't use that as an argument.

(October 4, 2011 at 12:23 am)salty Wrote:

(October 3, 2011 at 12:12 pm)searchingforanswers Wrote: As a black person (I'm also black btw. random info haha) don't you see the problem with calling homosexuality wrong simply because it's different from the common sexual preference? Seriously, I don't understand. It's discrimination based on sexual preference. Racism is discrimination based on race. You can't help if your born black, you can't help if your born white. You can't help if your born gay, you can't help if your born straight. The whole "they cant make babies"argument is useless when you consider the fact that we still have heterosexuals. So seriously, other than god forbidding it, what is so bad about homosexuality? Like morally bad, causing harm to others. Not "ew. that's not normal." Because that's just discrimination.

The argument "you can't help that you're born gay" isn't accurate.

WRONG! Did you choose to be straight? NO! Bigot, you didn't.

You did however, choose to be ignorant. No excuse for that.

Quote: I admit that some people are born with a more potent desire to be sexually involved with the same gender than others, but it does nothing to define them. What you do in a bedroom with another person is not who you are. Also, people who practice homosexuality aren't always gay.

Correction- They don't always claim to be gay. There are a lot of people out there who pretend to be straight, when they aren't.

Quote: Homosexuality is an attraction (look it up), it's not a state of being, the gay community has created a culture, but it was not always present, Blacks have always had a culture because we were collected from many countries and formed the black American culture through our struggles.

Right, because gay people haven't dealt with struggle at all. They've had all their rights handed to them on the same silver platters on which you try to serve us bullshit.

Gay culture is just as valid as black culture. Their rights are just as valid, and the only bitches who say they aren't do so with the book of god in their hands.

Quote:In addition, this idea that "gay people can't help themselves" is a sad excuse for not owning up to your decisions.

Do you know any gay people? You have no insight whatsoever, so I am willing to bet you don't.

Oh! and like, "Jesus saves us from our sins" ISN'T a cop out. You make whatever repulsive decision you want, and just pass it off to Jesus. HYPOCRITE!

Quote: What do you think my husband would say if he caught me with another man and I said, "I was born this way, I couldn't help it, it's who I am." That's not entirely true. I may have been born with the desire to flirt and be around many men, but I choose how far I will allow those desires to go, no one twists my arm to sleep around, no one tells me to have sexual thoughts about someone, no one forces me to enter a room, take off my clothes...etc. Homosexuality is an attraction that ends in a choice; I will act on this feeling or I won't act on this feeling. People choose for themselves, just like I choose to be committed to my husband because it is immoral for me to find another partner and have a romance with them and sleep with them.

Gay people can be just as faithful in relationships. BEING GAY IS NOT A CHOICE! No more than being black or white. Do you honestly think so many people would subject themselves to the pains of being a homosexual in a bigoted world if they could help it? You're brain is clogged with scripture, or something. Whatever the case, you're highly illogical.

Quote:Really, it's very annoying for people to compare blackness to homosexuality because you'll notice that blackness has nothing to do with actions, but everything to do with what is visibly seen. Homosexuality is based on desire and then acted upon (this is not a private view, call the makers of dictionary.com and see if they'll change their definition to include love and romance I don't think they will). It is only visible if people conform to the standards the gay culture that has been created from the gay community, otherwise we would never know, but Blacks aren't like that, are they? By adopting a new walk, a new hair style, a new way of talking or some kind of fashion it doesn't change the fact that I'm Black does it? Do you think the KKK would refrain from attacking me because I'm wearing a blue dress? "Ohhh I see, you're a part of the white culture now, we like blue." That's ridiculous, their behavior is based on their views of the inferiority of people with dark skin whether black, Indian, Mexican or whatever, they also don't like homosexuals, but how will they know if their behavior is the same as anyone's? That just doesn't work for Blacks.

It's compared to blacks in the sense that one can't help being gay or black.

Salty, you disgust me with your lack of understanding human nature. You do know you're an animal, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ani...l_behavior

Quote:As you will notice, moral issues revolve around right conduct, not if they cause harm to others.

ACCORDING TO WHOSE STANDARDS?

Quote: The decision to have sex with a corpse is immoral, but causes no harm to others.

If you found out someone had violated your mother's corpse, that wouldn't hurt you? Please! Having sex with a corpse isn't immoral, it's just weird and gross- To most people.

To some ancient civilizations, it was common practice for religious rituals.

Quote: The decision to steal from people is immoral, but it does no harm to others.

So I am going to come steal everything you have, and I want you to come here and state that no harm was done. Wow. you're really dumb if you think theft hurts no one.

Quote:The decision to lie to people is immoral, but it does no harm to others. So let's put this "it doesn't hurt anyone" thinking behind us, things can be deemed immoral without effecting someone personally and without bringing harm.

You are either the stupidest, or most immoral person I have ever witnessed on or off the internet. You're absolutely wicked. If you really think lying doesn't hurt anyone... holy fucking shit, salty. Get help. I think you might be a sociopath. Seriously.

I know you rarely respond to anything I say, but that is the best compliment you can give me. It's hard for bat shit crazy to argue with rational arguments.

Salty, have you realized the amount of bending over backwards you've gone to try to justify homossexuality as wrong? I mean, deciding something is immoral usually is quite easy: Murder is wrong because you harm the victim and everyone around, you spark hatred, vengeance, and overall you are doing harm to the species. Its quite easy to do, no more rationalizations are needed. Now look how you need to create big constructs of reason ontop of shaky foundations, just to justify your belief about homossexuality. You are rationalizing over a prejudice. If you are a follower of christ as you claim, and assuming for a bit the legend is true, you are casting the first stone.

A gay man, facing a woman undressing in front of her will have no reaction, his 'tool' won't work, and he won't have desire. The same happens to me if a man undresses in front of me as an heterossexual man. And I would prefer to kill myself to having sex against my will with a man, just because someone deemed it 'normal'.

I'd say we have plenty more reason to deem religion immoral than we have to deem homossexuality wrong. Plenty of evidence there. And you know why I don't do that? Because if there is at least 1 good religious person, I have no right to judge all in a sweeping generalization, just because some people used religion to less honorable ends. I could say that religion is wrong! Lets forbid it? Of course not. Most atheists would like religion gone, its true, but most want it to go away by people's own reasoning, not ostracising them.

(October 4, 2011 at 12:23 am)salty Wrote: The decision to steal from people is immoral, but it does no harm to others. The decision to lie to people is immoral, but it does no harm to others.

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen anyone put to electrons. Stealing from someone most certainly causes financial harm. Lying to someone can cause all kinds of awful repercussions, depending on what you are lying about.

How are your mental gymnastics working out?

Salty didn't assert my post. I am dissapoint.

(October 3, 2011 at 12:00 pm)salty Wrote:

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(October 2, 2011 at 6:59 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(October 1, 2011 at 7:04 pm)salty Wrote: Do you like for every person to agree with you? Is this the first time someone has shown an opposing view? I did not contradict myself, you just refused to accept my reasoning. I explain to you that the simple fact that bodies of the same gender cannot come together, therefore by nature this combination is wrong, but your emotions are leading you, so you cannot understand me. There are no absolutes when it comes to relationships. There is no contradiction when someone leaves room for error, for the circumstance where things work out and when they don't. Be done with me if you want, but know that I am entitled to share my opinion.

I'm not opposed to disagreement but you need to have valid reasons for it.

And in my view you don't. "Oh it's wrong because their bits don't fit together and it's not natural"

Well, so fucking what?!?!?

By that reasoning we should give up flying in aeroplanes because our bodies aren't "designed" for flight.

I believe your husband is causasian?

How would you feel if someone told you that mixed marriages are sinful because black and white shouldn't be interbreeding?

And there are PLENTY of good little christians who think exactly that.

But here there be atheists who are of the opinion that when two people love each other sufficently that they are prepared to commit to each other for the rest of their lives, their gender, color or religion don't matter a fuck.

It is not wrong.

And if you can't see that then you are just as prejudiced, bigoted and narrowminded as any member of the KKK.

Zen,
I'm sorry to get you worked up like this. Every adult can choose their own path, but I stand by the fact that it is unnatural. Will any of these thoughts stop a gril in my wedding from being gay? Will any of these thoughts, stop my coworker, my cousin, my former boss, my other friends from being gay? No, everyone chooses for themselves, it just hurts when someone disagrees, especially when a good amount of people agree on the topic.

Let's clear up the opinion you expressed:
1. I am Black, so I won't be allowed to join the KKK. Please refrain from using your anger to answer for you, it's really offensive for you to say that I'm involved in a society that still works to undermine Black advancement and to be cruel to Blacks without knowing people individually. I never claimed to hate homosexuals, actually I would think it would be difficult to do so as the ones that I know are funny, smart and helpful, but that doesn't change that their behavior is unnatural and they know my opinion, yet we're still friends.

2. My husband is white, you are correct, and there are still people that feel that interracial couples are wrong because they don't want white "blood" to be mixed with black "blood", but science tells us that we can give blood to each other and save lives, so this notion of imbreeding or black people having different blood is a misconception (except for sickle-cell anemia, that's a condition that is more prevalent in Blacks than anyone else).

3. Biblically, interracial marriage was never an issue, even though Whites would use the Bible as a way to claim that each racial group should stay with its own. It was interreligious marriage that God does not like. He doesn't want his people to be dragged away from him by a spouse that worships idols. Even in the New Testament the Lord declares that one should not marry someone who is not a believer, but if they are already married and one person chooses to believe and another does not, the Lord says to not divorce (unless the unbeliever does not want to be married to a believer, then the believer is released from the relationship, but the believer should not leave the relationship otherwise).

Remember, back then people were against interracial relationships because they felt that Blacks were less than human, stupid, worthless, etc. Things they had done to us by not allowing us to read, not paying us fair wages, not giving us any rights. (Which reminds me, there are Christians, myself among them, that believe homosexuals shouldn't be discriminated against in jobs, clubs, wages etc) But science tells us that humans are humans correct? That ethnicity does not stop someone from being human, like the Whites would say. When they made arguments against interracial relationships they weren't angry about love, they were afraid of these multi-ethnic children, about blacks becoming educated and equal, about Blacks achieving things that Whites hadn't done, they were afraid to lose their servants, to lose the safe culture they knew.

If someone told me that my husband and I couldn't be together I would show that Biblically I am approved to be married to my husband. Also, I would show that nature declares any woman and any man can conceive children together. If they persisted, I would leave them to their opinion.

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And you would deny to others the rights you demand for yourself because of the words written 2000 years ago by a bunch of unwashed goatherders.

If you find my anger offensive, how much more offensive do you think your bigotry(masquerading as religious piety) is???

I'm done. Any respect you might have garnered here has just been lost.