Shit doesn't make for a very good foundation.

(February 3, 2019 at 9:40 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(February 3, 2019 at 9:34 am)onlinebiker Wrote: I disagree. They weren' t fed up with the ( D ) party - they simply didn't like Hillary.


The ( R )s could have ran the corner fencepost and won the election.

---

%65 wool??


That must be the part that goes over their eyes....

I never understood the Hilary hate.

It's not just Hillary. It's the entire 'Hillary wing' of the party. For example, Howard Shcultz is a Hillary Dem. There are parties within the parties. The New Democrats are a party within the Democratic Party that pretty much took over the party in 1992 with Bill Clinton. The think tank of the New Democrats is The Progressive Policy Institute. That name is pretty misleading, because The Progressive Policy Institute is basically a centrist think tank. In fact, one of the founders (Al Frum) has said that he named it the Progressive Policy Institute so that the media wouldn't be calling it the Democrat's conservative think tank.

I like Bill Clinton. Most people do. But the New Dems, who are a minority of the party, have had a stranglehold on the party for a very long time. Some of the policies of the New Dems have had bad long term consequences, such as admitting China to the WTO. The New Dems tend to talk a progressive game, and then decide in favor of Wall Street. They talk a big game about supporting organized labor, and then they pull the rug out from under organized labor. They are notorious for saying that they support policies that they throw no meaningful support behind. They have been pretty thoroughly corrupted by their corporate sponsors. Hillary's corporate sponsors were so powerful that she basically felt that she owned the party. 

The public perception of the New Democrats is so bad that New Democrat contenders for the 2020 nomination are distancing themselves from New Democrat positions-- which is sort of typical of New Democrats. Talking a progressive game while being a centrist in practice is what they do. Progressive voters should always check for New Democrat affiliations and positions before supporting a candidate. And as I live and breath, Cory Booker is a New Democrat. He sells himself as a Congressional Progressive Caucus kind of guy, but he's New Dem fraud.

(January 27, 2019 at 6:33 pm)Yonadav Wrote: ...
Wingnuts on the right defend Trump's attacks on journalists.
Wingnuts on the left defend antifa's attacks on journalists.
...
The same 'blindeye' mentality exists in segments of both the right and the left.

One small flaw I notice. The US does not have a left. At least not in the original sense of left and right; maybe in a relative sense.

You’re smart so I’m guessing you’ve read Machiavelli’s Il Principe. And you’ve probably now guessed where I’m going with this.

The US has two main power houses / aristocracies... red and blue.
Much like Manchester football.

See also York and Lancaster; Starks and Lannisters; Montagues and Capulets etc.

They have their ardent, ‘loyalist’ fans as do most royal houses. They have their propagandists (Fox, CNN) and their agent provocateurs and whisperers (CIA, FBI, NSA). They have their sponsoring (often fickle and opportunistic) Barons and their lines of succession. E.g. see WarnerMedia / CNN / K. Harris.

“... a plague on both their houses.” I hear you say.

So the irony is that the non-rabid Trump supporters and Bernie supporters have something interesting in common... they are genuine republicans i.e. anti-monarchists.

Bring Back The Republic... Bernie 2020.

(February 3, 2019 at 10:51 am)DLJ Wrote:

(January 27, 2019 at 6:33 pm)Yonadav Wrote: ...
Wingnuts on the right defend Trump's attacks on journalists.
Wingnuts on the left defend antifa's attacks on journalists.
...
The same 'blindeye' mentality exists in segments of both the right and the left.

One small flaw I notice. The US does not have a left. At least not in the original sense of left and right; maybe in a relative sense.

You’re smart so I’m guessing you’ve read Machiavelli’s Il Principe. And you’ve probably now guessed where I’m going with this.

The US has two main power houses / aristocracies... red and blue.
Much like Manchester football.

See also York and Lancaster; Starks and Lannisters; Montagues and Capulets etc.

They have their ardent, ‘loyalist’ fans as do most royal houses. They have their propagandists (Fox, CNN) and their agent provocateurs and whisperers (CIA, FBI, NSA). They have their sponsoring (often fickle and opportunistic) Barons and their lines of succession. E.g. see WarnerMedia / CNN / K. Harris.

“... a plague on both their houses.” I hear you say.

So the irony is that the non-rabid Trump supporters and Bernie supporters have something interesting in common... they are genuine republicans i.e. anti-monarchists.

Bring Back The Republic... Bernie 2020.

Yeah, totally agree with you about the red and blue aristocracies. And you know that I would totally vote for Bernie if he could get the nomination. And I would vote for him if he ran as a third party candidate.

There is a left. But we got obliterated by the divide and conquer strategy of identity politics. It is impossible to talk about the gentrification of the Democratic Party with Democrats, because they just point to the interior decorating they did in the House of Representatives with diverse people. You know, trickle down diversification. We're not just adding tokens of diversification to the aristocracy or anything.
 
I am close to a hundred percent certain that Bernie can't run this time. Some people who blame him for Hillary's loss have been busily preparing a smear campaign against him, should he enter the race.

(February 3, 2019 at 11:59 am)Yonadav Wrote: Yeah, totally agree with you about the red and blue aristocracies. And you know that I would totally vote for Bernie if he could get the nomination. And I would vote for him if he ran as a third party candidate.

There is a left. But we got obliterated by the divide and conquer strategy of identity politics. It is impossible to talk about the gentrification of the Democratic Party with Democrats, because they just point to the interior decorating they did in the House of Representatives with diverse people. You know, trickle down diversification. We're not just adding tokens of diversification to the aristocracy or anything.
 
I am close to a hundred percent certain that Bernie can't run this time. Some people who blame him for Hillary's loss have been busily preparing a smear campaign against him, should he enter the race.

The democratic party would be seen as radically right wing by UK standards, and we aren't that left wing. The US has been nudging further and further right for decades until the last election where you took a massive lunge to the right which has emboldened the worlds arseholes.

(February 3, 2019 at 4:45 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(February 3, 2019 at 11:59 am)Yonadav Wrote: Yeah, totally agree with you about the red and blue aristocracies. And you know that I would totally vote for Bernie if he could get the nomination. And I would vote for him if he ran as a third party candidate.

There is a left. But we got obliterated by the divide and conquer strategy of identity politics. It is impossible to talk about the gentrification of the Democratic Party with Democrats, because they just point to the interior decorating they did in the House of Representatives with diverse people. You know, trickle down diversification. We're not just adding tokens of diversification to the aristocracy or anything.
 
I am close to a hundred percent certain that Bernie can't run this time. Some people who blame him for Hillary's loss have been busily preparing a smear campaign against him, should he enter the race.

The democratic party would be seen as radically right wing by UK standards, and we aren't that left wing. The US has been nudging further and further right for decades until the last election where you took a massive lunge to the right which has emboldened the worlds arseholes.

Our left took an ass beating in 1972. Centrist Dems have been terrified of leaning left ever since. The New Democrats completely took over the party in the 90s. The New Democrats are guided by a think tank called The Progressive Policy Institute. Al Frum says that he named it that so that the media would not call it the Democrats conservative think tank.

I don't think that Trump's election was a massive lunge to the right. We've been trending to the right, largely with the help of the New Democrats. If there was a massive lunge to the right, it happened during the rise of the Tea Party and the Republican capture of the House in 2010. 

I'm not certain how much you can blame us for emboldening the world's assholes. Before Trump, there was Brexit. And before that, illiberal democracies were on the rise. I don't think that it is possible for a democracy to become illiberal without illiberal elements dominating both the right and the left. So we have a huge problem with a growing illiberal mentality.  It's convenient to put it all on Trump. But that's giving Trump way too much credit. He has been putting on the world's most embarrassing shit show, but Trump is a symptom and not the disease.

(February 3, 2019 at 5:25 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 3, 2019 at 4:45 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: The democratic party would be seen as radically right wing by UK standards, and we aren't that left wing. The US has been nudging further and further right for decades until the last election where you took a massive lunge to the right which has emboldened the worlds arseholes.

Our left took an ass beating in 1972. Centrist Dems have been terrified of leaning left ever since. The New Democrats completely took over the party in the 90s. The New Democrats are guided by a think tank called The Progressive Policy Institute. Al Frum says that he named it that so that the media would not call it the Democrats conservative think tank.

I don't think that Trump's election was a massive lunge to the right. We've been trending to the right, largely with the help of the New Democrats. If there was a massive lunge to the right, it happened during the rise of the Tea Party and the Republican capture of the House in 2010. 

I'm not certain how much you can blame us for emboldening the world's assholes. Before Trump, there was Brexit. And before that, illiberal democracies were on the rise. I don't think that it is possible for a democracy to become illiberal without illiberal elements dominating both the right and the left. So we have a huge problem with a growing illiberal mentality.  It's convenient to put it all on Trump. But that's giving Trump way too much credit. He has been putting on the world's most embarrassing shit show, but Trump is a symptom and not the disease.

BM. So true, and a shameful comment on what a lot of people in this country are really like. The decent people may have to hold their noses again and vote for "not the chump", instead of cutting them off to spite the system.