(March 14, 2019 at 11:08 am)Yonadav Wrote: You might try taking those blinders off, for one. There's no such thing as appealing to all Americans, and trying to specifically appeal to a set of winning demographics is inherently pandering.

Gee...you don't say......

Quote:Being honest about the issues is a good place to start, and your constant blather about white supremacists isn't honest. I have never seen a guy more determined to piss off working class white people than you. You want to brand them all as white supremacists, and when that pisses people off you claim that this proves that they are white supremacists. A huge part of the left is working class whites, and you are trying to alienate them all. It's enough to make me think that you are a poe who is really a Republican trying trying to alienate working class white people from the left. This isn't a very politically active forum, so maybe you just practice your bullshit here.

Meh, 0/10.  I point out white supremacy wherever it is.  It's a fact that white supremacy has ingratiated itself to both the right and the left...like any other lobby, they make contributions to both sides when they can. I don't know how many times I have to explain to you that I don't really have any skin in the whole red v blue thing.  I'd like to disenfranchise white supremacists and white supremacy right out of the country, personally...political parties are small potatoes on that count.  We could deport them, or maybe build a giant WALL around some desert and stuff them all into a camp!

lol

Quote:I don't want to vote for a person who just says things for demographic appeal. I want the party to shift to the left, and a New Dem isn't going to shift the party to the left no matter what they are willing to say to win an election. The New Dems are inherently Reagan Democrats with a few socially liberal positions mixed in for broader appeal. They are going to be Reagan Democrats no matter what.  I am not going to vote for one of them, no matter what.

None of that strikes as remotely genuine or credible when you predictably rail against the leftward shift, purists and radicals and whatnot.

(March 14, 2019 at 10:51 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(March 14, 2019 at 10:43 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: Brian, lol, he's trolling you.  His entire gimmick is to rail against party purity while simultaneously decrying impure new dems, lol.

Um  no, Yov isn't trolling me. He is not the only Bernie purist. And he fails to see that Hillary also had her purists. 

I am sure he truly believes the crap he is spewing. 

My point is, and continues to be, we cannot afford division in the general ad dems. 

I do like our field. I like Bernie, I like Beto, I like Harris, I like Warren and I like Booker.

I do worry however, not about the individual candidates, but about purists of any camp as supporters. I am quite sure that Beto, the individual, himself, will not say, "Fuck dems if I don't get the nomination." I am damned sure Beto will say, even if he doesn't get nominated, "Back up our nominee."

You are a liar. You lie about people as much as Trump does.

 I'm not a Bernie purist. I've explained to you hundreds of times that I won't vote for a New Dem. You are a clueless party loyalist who would vote for Adolf Hitler if he won the Dem nomination. You keep bitching about Wonald Weagan and then you eagerly bend over to get fucked up the ass by Weagan Democwats.

I won't vote for a New Dem. Bernie is the guy that I trust the most on the left. But I would have happily voted for Sherrod Brown if he would have stayed in the race and won the nomination. I will happily vote for Warren if she wins the nom. I will probably vote for Harris if she wins the nom. I won't vote for Beto under any circumstances. And I probably won't vote for Booker if he gets the nom. Booker smells too much like an ambitious New Dem to me.

(March 14, 2019 at 11:08 am)Yonadav Wrote:

(March 14, 2019 at 10:34 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: I'm not telling you that the dumpster fire in chief -isn't- running game on his constituency, ofc he is.  I honestly doubt that there's a GOP anymore, personally, the party of trump shivved it.  Still..yeah, they'll continue to do what's been working for them. On the other side of that coin, however, is that if the american left is interested in appealing to "all americans" rather than simply mouthing those words in an attempt to manufacture the appearance...then they, and you, are going to have to come to grips with exactly who you're appealing to, and how you're doing to have to do it.

I think that it's a bad idea, to use the example I offered before, to appeal to white supremacy in order to avoid fascism, but if the left wants to do that then it should do it out in the open.  You should understand that this is what you're going to have to do whether you like it or not.  So, for an example.  Beto used to talk about tearing down these walls...but that's tapered off, and he lost, so I'd expect to hear even less of it than before as he runs for a higher office and has to appeal to WALL fetishists.  

Alot of people will see that as somehow being inauthentic, pandering to polling...but what do we expect a genuine "appeal to all americans" to look like if -not- for that?

You might try taking those blinders off, for one. There's no such thing as appealing to all Americans, and trying to specifically appeal to a set of winning demographics is inherently pandering.

Being honest about the issues is a good place to start, and your constant blather about white supremacists isn't honest. I have never seen a guy more determined to piss off working class white people than you. You want to brand them all as white supremacists, and when that pisses people off you claim that this proves that they are white supremacists. A huge part of the left is working class whites, and you are trying to alienate them all. It's enough to make me think that you are a poe who is really a Republican trying trying to alienate working class white people from the left. This isn't a very politically active forum, so maybe you just practice your bullshit here.

I don't want to vote for a person who just says things for demographic appeal. I want the party to shift to the left, and a New Dem isn't going to shift the party to the left no matter what they are willing to say to win an election. The New Dems are inherently Reagan Democrats with a few socially liberal positions mixed in for broader appeal. They are going to be Reagan Democrats no matter what.  I am not going to vote for one of them, no matter what.

Considering the amount of posts you have made flipping out over me not leaning to Bernie this time, please don't lecture me on blinders.

The problem back then, and once again today, WAS NEVER BERNIE, but supporters like you.

Not going to play this game with you.

And as far as democratic appeal, THAT IS EXACTLY how primaries are won, and how general elections are won. REGARDLESS OF PARTY.

Running for office is ALL ABOUT convincing enough voters to put you over the finish line.

The orange asshole burned his way through the primaries, insulted his way through the primaries, and unfortunately won on his sell of fear and bigotry based on white anxiety.  But the one thing the GOP has been consistent with over decades, IS UNITY. So despite how shitty Trump treated Jeb and Cruz and Carly, they all united in the General. 

Again, I am going to vote for whom I want during the primaries. And vote for whomever we nominate in the general.

This isn't a purity test for me. It is about the direction America will go if we win, even if not perfect. And also about what direction we will go if we lose and give the orange asshole 8 years and control over the Supreme Court.

There is too much at stake to play this game.

(March 14, 2019 at 11:16 am)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(March 14, 2019 at 11:08 am)Yonadav Wrote: You might try taking those blinders off, for one. There's no such thing as appealing to all Americans, and trying to specifically appeal to a set of winning demographics is inherently pandering.

Gee...you don't say......

Quote:Being honest about the issues is a good place to start, and your constant blather about white supremacists isn't honest. I have never seen a guy more determined to piss off working class white people than you. You want to brand them all as white supremacists, and when that pisses people off you claim that this proves that they are white supremacists. A huge part of the left is working class whites, and you are trying to alienate them all. It's enough to make me think that you are a poe who is really a Republican trying trying to alienate working class white people from the left. This isn't a very politically active forum, so maybe you just practice your bullshit here.

Meh, 0/10.  I point out white supremacy wherever it is.  It's a fact that white supremacy has ingratiated itself to both the right and the left...like any other lobby, they make contributions to both sides when they can. I don't know how many times I have to explain to you that I don't really have any skin in the whole red v blue thing.  I'd like to disenfranchise white supremacists and white supremacy right out of the country, personally...political parties are small potatoes on that count.  We could deport them, or maybe build a giant WALL around some desert and stuff them all into a camp!

lol

Quote:I don't want to vote for a person who just says things for demographic appeal. I want the party to shift to the left, and a New Dem isn't going to shift the party to the left no matter what they are willing to say to win an election. The New Dems are inherently Reagan Democrats with a few socially liberal positions mixed in for broader appeal. They are going to be Reagan Democrats no matter what.  I am not going to vote for one of them, no matter what.

None of that strikes as remotely genuine or credible when you predictably rail against the leftward shift, purists and radicals and whatnot.

You don't just call out white supremacy where it is. You have repeatedly asserted that I might not be a white supremacist, but I should understand that people might suspect that I am one when I call you on your BS. You've done that to me. You've done that to others in this forum.

And I have never railed against the leftward shift of the Democratic Party. I have done nothing but encourage the leftward shift. Libtards aren't part of the leftward shift. Libtards are just the lice that have infested the left. Libtards just go around pissing people off within the left, and should probably be regarded as unwitting provocateurs who are aiding the right. Every libtard who is going around intentionally pissing off working class white people is basically in league with the right. That's why we call them libtards. They are so fucking retarded that that they encourage people who are otherwise pretty liberal to vote Republican.

(March 14, 2019 at 11:27 am)Yonadav Wrote: You don't just call out white supremacy where it is. You have repeatedly asserted that I might not be a white supremacist, but I should understand that people might suspect that I am one when I call you on your BS. You've done that to me. You've done that to others in this forum.

Part and parcel of the dissemination of contemporary white supremacist rhetoric.  They got out of their rubber room by appealing to the sentiments of people not traditionally thought to be aligned with their ideology through means assumed to be free of their taint.

Clearly it worked, since they now occupy the white house and people are constantly asking "whats racist about that" to the most racist shit imaginable while getting super upset... not that they've been trojan horsed..but that some asshole has the gall to point it out to them..and, obviously, you.  

How that's supposed to drive you out of the dem party™ is a mystery....but by all means explain how a constant anti-supremacist non dem is doing fifth columns for the party of the modern klan, to you.. and the entirety of the white working class?  You've swallowed their pill, and that's what's dividing you, insomuch as it can. Good luck with that.

Quote:And I have never railed against the leftward shift of the Democratic Party. I have done nothing but encourage the leftward shift. Libtards aren't part of the leftward shift. Libtards are just the lice that have infested the left. Libtards just go around pissing people off within the left, and should probably be regarded as unwitting provocateurs who are aiding the right. Every libtard who is going around intentionally pissing off working class white people is basically in league with the right. That's why we call them libtards. They are so fucking retarded that that they encourage people who are otherwise pretty liberal to vote Republican.

Case in point.

Politics are fun.

Boru

(March 14, 2019 at 11:19 am)Yonadav Wrote:

(March 14, 2019 at 10:51 am)Brian37 Wrote: Um  no, Yov isn't trolling me. He is not the only Bernie purist. And he fails to see that Hillary also had her purists. 

I am sure he truly believes the crap he is spewing. 

My point is, and continues to be, we cannot afford division in the general ad dems. 

I do like our field. I like Bernie, I like Beto, I like Harris, I like Warren and I like Booker.

I do worry however, not about the individual candidates, but about purists of any camp as supporters. I am quite sure that Beto, the individual, himself, will not say, "Fuck dems if I don't get the nomination." I am damned sure Beto will say, even if he doesn't get nominated, "Back up our nominee."

You are a liar. You lie about people as much as Trump does.

 I'm not a Bernie purist. I've explained to you hundreds of times that I won't vote for a New Dem. You are a clueless party loyalist who would vote for Adolf Hitler if he won the Dem nomination. You keep bitching about Wonald Weagan and then you eagerly bend over to get fucked up the ass by Weagan Democwats.

I won't vote for a New Dem. Bernie is the guy that I trust the most on the left. But I would have happily voted for Sherrod Brown if he would have stayed in the race and won the nomination. I will happily vote for Warren if she wins the nom. I will probably vote for Harris if she wins the nom. I won't vote for Beto under any circumstances. And I probably won't vote for Booker if he gets the nom. Booker smells too much like an ambitious New Dem to me.

How am I a liar?

Not kissing your ass does not make me a liar.

Trump is a con, a fraud and is dangerous.

I will vote for anyone who can beat him. But I will not fall for purity bullshit in the process.

Not sure I can stomach voting for any ticket with Sanders at the top. In such a case, I think I would actually have to consider voting third-party/independent for the first time.
Before you start screaming at me, Brian, please understand that I am not a confirmed Democrat. I vote as such and rally votes for the Dems, because they are the party that comes closest to representing my political views out of the two major ones. That's all.

There are both fundamental elements and sub-currents within the DSA that I genuinely find quite disturbing. If a DSA candidate who proves to be unwilling to entertain the notion of compromise is going to be the face of of the party, then that will likely be where I have to get off.

White men who voted for Obama did so because of party affiliation not because of anything to do with Obama appealing to all people (there were heaps of white men who are generally racially prejudiced against black people who voted for Obama regardless, and there are stats that show that). Hillary lost because, after two terms of having a black man for a president, many of these white men (and women) stopped affiliating themselves with the Democratic Party and saw an appeal in Trump that reminded them of the good old days of white man power. So they voted for him instead. Hillary is a woman (seen as a feminist) who ran for president at the wrong time and so was doomed almost from the moment she announced she was running. Regardless, she was still able to win the popular votes by 3 million votes or so. So that's something to say about her.

(March 14, 2019 at 10:51 am)Brian37 Wrote: I am sure he truly believes the crap he is spewing. 

Except it's not crap.

Beto votes Republican way too often. His big speech has no policy proposals. If his appeal is that he's like politicians who failed us in the past, we don't want him.

People want change so much they even voted for Trump. We should look for candidates who are sincere about that.