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Why I don't believe in 'free will'
#41
RE: Why I don't believe in 'free will'
Quote:I don't sense an illusion. I sense no free will at all.

I'm amazed!!!
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#42
RE: Why I don't believe in 'free will'
Yup. What illusion? I sense an illusion for those who BELIEVE It....to THEM it seems to be there....

But for me personally there is no sense of it - I sense no illusion.

Doing stuff is not an illusion for CHOOSING to do stuff for me. Not anymore.

Evidence of free will? I know of none. Any reason to believe in it AT ALL? Not as far as I know, nope.

That is how it feels to me. I sense no free will. I sense no illusion. I am simply aware that OTHERS sense it (i.e. - those who believe in free will).

EvF
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#43
RE: Why I don't believe in 'free will'
(May 28, 2009 at 7:09 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I'm not going to believe on 'faith'. I need a rational reason to believe - I need evidence.
As I explained to you last night (and I seem to remember you agreeing with me), evidence isn't the only example of rational reasoning. There is no evidence that 1 + 1 = 2, but we believe it because maths works better when that holds.

Philosophy and logic cannot possibly have evidence for them, and this is a philosophical issue. Hence there is no evidence for either side. The rational reasons to believe are based on logic.
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#44
RE: Why I don't believe in 'free will'
Let me try approaching the concept of lack of belief in "free will" from another angle.

There are lots of people who think that it is a choice to be a gay person. Most gay people I know disagree. Then some theists respond, even so, it is still your choice whether or not to act on it. But aren't some people just biologically (nature) and/or experientially (nurture) prone to exercise more self denial than others? Don't you think it likely that "ex-gay" people get some kind of reward out of that self denial that more than compensates for the cognitive dissonance they experience from their self-denial?

We could perform the same types of analyses for people who are overweight, or people who are into S&M. And however much these things seemed like choice some years ago, more and more we find that they have a biological cause, and less and less that things can be attributed to "free willl."

All I'm saying is that I see a trend developing. That's all. And while I decline this excellent opportunity to leap to the conclusion that there really is no such thing as self control, I certainly don't discount that possibility. At least, I'd go so far as to say that the concept of "free will," in the Biblical sense, is long gone out the window. May I have an "Amen" on that?
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#45
RE: Why I don't believe in 'free will'
I believe that options equate to free will. (Especially when there are stimuli for more than one of the options.)
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#46
RE: Why I don't believe in 'free will'
(May 28, 2009 at 9:30 pm)Tiberius Wrote:
(May 28, 2009 at 7:09 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I'm not going to believe on 'faith'. I need a rational reason to believe - I need evidence.
As I explained to you last night (and I seem to remember you agreeing with me), evidence isn't the only example of rational reasoning. There is no evidence that 1 + 1 = 2, but we believe it because maths works better when that holds.

Philosophy and logic cannot possibly have evidence for them, and this is a philosophical issue. Hence there is no evidence for either side. The rational reasons to believe are based on logic.

I didn't agree actually. I agreed that I cannot absolutely know these things. I'm agnostic on basically everything.....In that sense I'm philosophical.

I do expect evidence for a belief though. By evidence I mean in a very general way - I simply mean I need a valid reason to believe in something. If there's no valid reason to believe then why believe? If there is a valid reason to believe then that would have to be an indication of the truth of the belief - otherwise it wouldn't be valid. And if it's an indication of the truth of the belief then for me it is iow evidence. That is all I mean.

I need some indication that free will is true. By evidence I just mean that. A valid reason to believe in the truth of it - any whatsoever. If valid then it would iow count as some form of evidence, I would think?

(May 29, 2009 at 12:51 am)lrh9 Wrote: I believe that options equate to free will. (Especially when there are stimuli for more than one of the options.)

How couldn't options be there just as easily without free will? I know of no reason whatsoever to believe that options are an indication of free will. Options can be there and you can still 'act them out' without having any real choice in doing so. Without 'free will'. How would options make a difference?

I still need reason to believe in free will. Otherwise I don't see why on earth I would.

EvF
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#47
RE: Why I don't believe in 'free will'
I've been doing some reading online on the issue of free-will, and I think I pretty much agree with Daniel Dennett on the issue:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangl...lbows.html




Pretty much comes down to "we may not have behavioral choice, but we do have control of our behavior", a kind of free will that governs control more than choice.

Any thoughts?
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#48
RE: Why I don't believe in 'free will'
(May 29, 2009 at 9:01 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Pretty much comes down to "we may not have behavioral choice, but we do have control of our behavior", a kind of free will that governs control more than choice.

Any thoughts?

I am familar with Dennett's argument. I think that was an awesome article to read and I strongly agree with his argument there.

He defines 'free will' very differently to how it is usually defined. He rejects behavioral choice...we should be satisfied with the fact we simply have more capability and freedom (in that sense) than any other life form we know on this planet planet at least.

You can call it 'free will', you can not call if free will. It is certainly freedom in the sense we humans have a lot of freedom that other life forms on earth don't.

It's not how I was defining 'free will' or how most people I believe do (or at least an awful lot of people) - but as Dennett explains...that is because how most people defines it is ultimately pointless and as he has said on youtube videos I've seen, to paraphrase: 'it gives you nothing more...no extra powers at all'.

He strips 'free will' of the common pointless definition and keeps the term - without the unneeded definition that gives you no extra powers at all.

Highlights (important and interesting parts) from the article for me are:

Quote:Since the 1920s physicists have been trying to convince themselves that quantum indeterminacy can in some way explain Free Will. Dennett dismisses this idea as silly. How, he asks, can random resolutions of quantum-level events provide people with any control over their behavior?

As I have been saying. Indeterminism doesn't give any indication of free will. It simply imples more random whereas determinism is completely fixed. And how on earth does simply more random equate to free will or give evidence of free will?


Quote:Dennett is able to accept determinism and Free Will at the same time. How so?

This indicates a clear different definition of free will to how we have been defining it on this thread. As Adrian has said how determinism and 'free will' are incompatible before I think...(and I have said it makes 'free will impossible (yet indeterminism as the opposite doesn't at all imply free will, etc).

So Dennett's definition is very different here. Namely one of avoidability or what he calls evitability. We have this with or without the usual definition of free will - he is defining it differently.
I have to highlight all of the (hidden) following paragraph simply to say I completely agree with the absolute lot of it (I have also bolded a part that is very important IMO):




Again I have bolded a part that I think is particularly important:

Quote: In Elbow Room he tries to explain why all the attempts that people have tried to make to prove that people have behavioral choice have failed and are, in the final analysis, not really important anyhow. As humans, we are as much in control of our behavior as anything in the universe. As humans, we have the best chance to produce good behavior. We should be satisfied with what we have and not fret over our lack of behavioral choice.

(Bolding included again):

Quote:As usual, I find it very hard to disagree with Dennett. My largest complaint about Elbow Room is that it does not satisfactorily deal with the issue of why we feel so strongly that we do have behavioral choice. I agree with Dennett that we do not have choice, but why do we feel like we do?

[...]
As Dennett writes, Belief in Free Will is a necessary condition for having Free Will.

Since Dennett doesn't believe in behavioral free will he is speaking here simply of how people psychologically seem to need to believe in this behavioral free will. And when he says that's necessary for having free will though he then means that it's necessary for having his definition of free will - control, avoidability (or as he calls it -evitability, etc). Because he obviously isn't saying that belief in behavioral free will is necessary for behavioral free will because he doesn't actually believe behavioral free will is possible as he said. People feel attached to that kind and this attachment can make the kind that he believes is possible (control, avoidability, evitability, etc).

People commonly do seem to have to believe in behavioral free will in order to not fall into fatalism and lose a greater freedom of 'control'/'avoitability'/'evitability', etc.

That is common. I believe that since I understand how that works now that must be why this doesn't apply to me.

For the reasons that Dennett gives and because it makes no sense to me and I know of no reason or evidence to believe it - I also reject behavioral free will like Dennett does...but because I understand this I myself do not need to actually trick myself into actually believing it or something like that in order to have a greater freedom of Dennett's definition of Free Will - 'control', 'evitability' 'avoidability' which we all have whether the more common behavioral definition of free will exists or not.

I do not need to believe in to behavioral free will. I cannot trick myself anyway - many do because they believe that if they don't believe in free will then they are less free so they then act that way.

But that is not the case. Because if you never had free will then stopping beleving it shouldn't make you any less free because you're no less free than you've ever been because if you don't have behavioral free now then you never have! So it makes no difference logically!

It's just that commonly believe that without free will they are less free than when they previously believed it. But they're not because like I said - they can't be any less free than they were when they believed in it! Because if they don't have (behavioral) 'free will' now then they never did!


We are behaving...we are controlling.....we have more freedom than other life on earth (at least mentally).....we have 'control' in that sense. Whatever we are doing we are just doing mechanically but we do have freedom in the sense we are a lot more capable and consciousness than other life forms (on earth anyway).

I will close with perhaps the most significant line from the article to me that I bolded earlier but it's just one sentence and particularly striking to me on the matter of 'free will', and also a vid where Dennett discusses free will and the guy interviewing him keeps on about how Dennett is defining free will differently to most and he has a problem with that - and Dennett explains because the normal definition is useless and gives you to paraphrase 'no exta powers', etc.

He also speaks of what he calls 'evitability'

The quote from the article that I consider particularly important to my argument:

Quote:As humans, we are as much in control of our behavior as anything in the universe.

The Vid:

[youtube]Utai74HjPJE[/youtube]

(Side note: I have posted this vid elsewhere on the forum I believe (or perhaps it was the part about consciousness but from the same interview) - but it's certainly very appropriate here since this is what the thread is about ('free will'))).

EvF
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#49
RE: Why I don't believe in 'free will'
If fruit flies have it then so do I Wink

http://brembs.net/spontaneous/

To be honest, the researchers are aware that a philosopher could quibble over "that's not really free will", so they are not quite as blatant as I presented it. Still, any philosopher who wanted to use such a defence would be faced with defining what free will is, if it isn't what has been found now.

This of course raises the question, what is free will? Specifically, if we can find it in all sorts of animals, including insects, does it really count?

Anyway, I did say that I was going to leave this subject alone, but perhaps something in my brain has taken control and is making these decisions for me Wink Shades
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#50
RE: Why I don't believe in 'free will'
(May 30, 2009 at 3:33 am)Darwinian Wrote: If fruit flies have it then so do I Wink

This of course raises the question, what is free will? Specifically, if we can find it in all sorts of animals, including insects, does it really count?
From the above article that Adrian posted - once again:

Quote:As humans, we are as much in control of our behavior as anything in the universe.

Not just animals. And not just life forms. Anything. So we are as much in control of our behavior as an a spec of dust of a stray atom iow. Zero in other words...

It's not about control of behavior. It's about freedom as in more capability, consciousness, intelligence and freedom in general (avoidability/'evitability' that Dennett speaks of basically).. And defining 'free will' as being capable of controlling our own behavior (when there's no real reason (at least that I know of yet to believe we are anyway) is a completely gratuitous definition. It might seem meaningful but it doesn't give us any more powers, ...you don't need it to be moral in anyway, doesn't give us any more real meaning, nothing that matters anyway, you don't need them, who cares (to paraphrase Dan Dennett at the end of that vid somewhat).

It doesn't really give us any more powers to believe otherwise...as Dennett says in the vid it's just an illusion[ to think that it does.

I believe that I know it's an now illusion though and since because of that and incidentally I don't believe in (behavioral) 'free will' - it's no longer an illusion for me other than I'm aware that it is for others who do[/b] believe in the behavioral definition of 'free will'.

(May 30, 2009 at 3:33 am)Darwinian Wrote: Anyway, I did say that I was going to leave this subject alone, but perhaps something in my brain has taken control and is making these decisions for me Wink Shades

Wink...Big Grin

Something in your brain that was either influenced by external things or from other thoughts in the brain, or both - I'd say that I think it's almost certainly it [i]must
be both. Because there is a constant interaction between what goes on internally in the brain and how it interprets and is effected by the outside world...surely?

So I'd say something in your brain, and your reactions in the brain to things outside of your brain, your genetics, your environment, etc, - made you have to chip in just that once more Wink (whether it was determined or not. I don't believe it is because I'm a indeterminist. Because that Quantum Mechanics supports INdeterminism right?)

Because of course INdeterminism as (as least attempted to be) explained in this thread by me doesn't give any more power to (behavioral) 'free will' than does determinism....determinism simply makes it impossible.

Because the thing is...how does more random equate to more choice? It doesn't does it? That was my point about the dice. Simply being random as opposed to rigged doesn't make you have make you have any more 'free will' (as in behavioral free will.).

To close again with another quote from the article that supports this point I am making and have been at least trying to make throughout the thread lolSmile (crucial part bolded) :

Quote: Since the 1920s physicists have been trying to convince themselves that quantum indeterminacy can in some way explain Free Will. Dennett dismisses this idea as silly. How, he asks, can random resolutions of quantum-level events provide people with any control over their behavior?

This is why INdeterminism gives no more power to the more common definition of free will (behavioral free will) than determinism....determinism simply makes it impossible. There is still no known valid reason to believe that INdeterminism would somehow give people 'any control over their behavior' (as said in the above quote) whatsoever.



Basically it's physics. And you and I are part of physics. And whether we believe that we are simply doing what it is compelling us to or not - we are. Because the belief itself is part of physics either way, whether believed or disbelieved - it's still physics. The way it rolls - we are part of it and we follow it - we are part of the ride! Whether we have a consciousness or awareness or not. Whether we are intelligent or not.

I am what I am. I am doing what I am doing. It may be stating the obvious but at least it's without any wishful thinking Wink - tells it like it is.

EvF
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