It's immoral and outside of your beliefs to have public prayers when you're the coach? I've read the Bible cover-to-cover twice and can't remember that being anywhere. I do remember a bit in Matthew about praying in private, though. Sound like you at least got your reward, Tack.

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(July 5, 2019 at 11:59 am)tackattack Wrote:

(July 5, 2019 at 11:44 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Um, generically speaking, coaches aren't released because they pray, they get released for getting other people to pray in their capacity as a representative for the institution they're coaching for. Protecting people from having an authority figure who may have influence over things like who starts and who gets benched is preventing the coach from oppressing them; not oppressing the coach. If I hire a Muslim or a Hindu to coach the problem with them organizing prayers seems to be readily apparent to all concerned, but if the coach is a Christian, somehow it's a mystery. If you're not capable of performing the tasks of your job as outlined by your employer, you're in the wrong job; like a Muslim bartender who refuses to mix drinks because he views it as against his religion. Well, he shouldn't be a bartender, should he?

I was an assistant volunteer coach. We having a team prayer for years and pray over our victory meals. It wasn't until an atheist parent's child joined and they felt the need to make it a point that I was released to save the drama. At no point was there discrimination or oppression of the boys based on their participation in the prayer or personal beliefs it was solely a SJW point. At no point was anyone forced to participate. I will agree that telemarketing wasn't the job for me. But I was still fired for refusing to lie. If I weren't a Christian and just refused to lie I probably would have been fired as well, so that's probably a bad example.

If you were coaching at a public school, the point they made of it may have been that your activities were illegal. And the courts have made quite a point that coaches and teachers have too much authority to be pretending that there isn't an element of coercion involved when they start promoting their personal views. Also, 'argument from tradition' is a fallacy. Having done something for a long time is not a justification for continuing to do it.

I think this is another one of those cultural things, more precisely an US cultural thing. In Portugal there isn't this nonsense as generally people go by "live and let live" policy. There are no prayers on sports and there aren't any in school. There is an optional class called religion & morals, but that one is pretty much secular at that and people never pray even there.

Some of us do like to fight bulls in the arena. That's cultural (it began as an iberian thing)

@Mister Agenda OK, I guess I got my come-upance. 15yrs ago was a different PC world and every ball game had a huddle. I don't really feel there's anything wrong with saying a prayer in a group outloud. It may make some people uncomfortable, but I believe that's their problem. As I said, I'm not really persecuted so or oppressed so I've already answered the OP and spent enough energy on the topic. If we'd like to discuss the differences between freedom of expression and limiting other's speech or one person's belief being a harassment to another's rights then I'll take it up again when I have more time in another thread. But, to the OP. US Christians can be targeted, but as they're the majority, and very privileged, unlikely to have any really deserving oppression and hardships due to their beliefs.

(July 5, 2019 at 11:59 am)tackattack Wrote: @Gae Bolga it was public and on the field at a team huddle pre-game. I can only guess the mother didn't want their child to be perceived as different from the rest of the team because the prayer confused him.

We can say both cases weren't because of my religion, but of other people's personal beliefs. My boss thought that I should lie to customers. The mom thought I was singling out her son. I guess there is no such thing as persecution. Glad that was solved. It's not the Christian who gets beheaded's fault it's the wrong beliefs of the regime that does it?

No tack, lol... your boss expected you - not- to use your religion to make other people uncomfortable... because you weren’t working for a ducking church. They didn’t sign up for that....but you couldn’t help but interject yourself because you believe that your silly shit is right and good. You were the asshole in this situation...,.not the persecuted party.

To use the example you offered, if a religious asshole. My case is made whe good and decent people like you - act- like the religious assholes you aren’t... because that’s the predictable effect of theistic belief. You were not persecuted for your beliefs and you should be fucking ashamed for even suggesting as much... and you know that. And yet that’s what you did, then.., and now.

Wtf are you even talking about with beheadibgs.... honestly, what....the....fuck?

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Dude, lol, praying to god for a win at some little league shit isn’t just offensive to the irreligious, it’s offensive the the religious and to the very notion of god itself. What were you thinking?

What are you thinking even now, pivoting to full freeze peach grift? You’re better than this.

Sure, decades ago when religious silliness held brutal authority over the social hegemony no one would have dared to object.... but that doesn’t mean that it was a good idea... even then.

Outsider test.

I've never been discriminated against because I'm a Christian. I would define the word as losing your job, not receiving generally available public services, … that sort of thing. 

I think this is unjust discrimination tho'. Right here in Canada [ America without Trump ]. An evangelical university in British Columbia starts a law school. It's program is approved by whatever body does that sort of thing. At this university students must sign an agreement not to live in sin . No gay sex, no extra marital sex. Anyway some of the provincial Law Society's don't think people who attended that sort of place should be lawyers so they won't admit them. Provinces have different rules but in some of them otherwise qualified lawyers cannot practise their profession. 

BTW, the word discrimination means nothing in itself. All it means is making distinctions sometimes among classes of people. In some contexts it's a positive thing as in a discriminating art dealer. Some distinctions are unjust some are not.

(July 5, 2019 at 11:59 am)tackattack Wrote: I was an assistant volunteer coach. We having a team prayer for years and pray over our victory meals. It wasn't until an atheist parent's child joined and they felt the need to make it a point that I was released to save the drama. At no point was there discrimination or oppression of the boys based on their participation in the prayer or personal beliefs it was solely a SJW point. At no point was anyone forced to participate. I will agree that telemarketing wasn't the job for me. But I was still fired for refusing to lie. If I weren't a Christian and just refused to lie I probably would have been fired as well, so that's probably a bad example.

This here is the mindset of Christian Privilege in a nutshell.

Imagine for a moment that you lived in an area where Christianity wasn't the default.  This will be hard, because you've lived in such an area your entire life, and have no idea what it's like for anyone else.  But a little bit of empathy goes a long way, I find.

Now imagine that you lived in an area where everyone was an Atheist.  They have freedom of religion, but 75% of the country are atheists.  And you have a son who's on the baseball team.  Every day before the game the coach and most of the boys -- not all, since participation is not mandatory -- say an affirmation:  "There is no god, the bible's nothing but a lie.  Now let's play this game, and give it our best try!" 
You think the atheist children might not think differently of the ones who are saying it?  Because i can guarantee you the Christian children who say their prayer with their coach think differently of the ones who don't.  You might not see it -- but it's there.  There's a hidden pressure for these kids to go along with it, especially when it's by an authority figure.

But this is difficult for you to understand because you live in a country where your religion is the 'default'.  You can't experience the feeling these kids who don't participate have.  You can't even see it.  There's a peer pressure involved here.  That the prayer is 'voluntary' is meaningless when there's a pressure to conform.

(July 5, 2019 at 12:14 pm)tackattack Wrote: @Mister Agenda OK, I guess I got my come-upance. 15yrs ago was a different PC world and every ball game had a huddle. I don't really feel there's anything wrong with saying a prayer in a group outloud. It may make some people uncomfortable, but I believe that's their problem. As I said, I'm not really persecuted so or oppressed so I've already answered the OP and spent enough energy on the topic. If we'd like to discuss the differences between freedom of expression and limiting other's speech or one person's belief being a harassment to another's rights then I'll take it up again when I have more time in another thread. But, to the OP. US Christians can be targeted, but as they're the majority, and very privileged, unlikely to have any really deserving oppression and hardships due to their beliefs.

Huddle does not mean prayer circle.  It didn't fifteen years ago and it doesn't now.

Quote:hud·dle
[ˈhədl]


VERB

1. crowd together; nestle closely.
   
   

[size=undefined]NOUN
[/size]

1. a crowded or confused mass of people or things.
   
   

Fun fact: Deaf Football players invented the huddle at Gallaudet University.

We are spreading the word that God is love, leave us alone, we've airbrushed out nearly all of the old testament... How dare you accuse us of not changing with the times. We allow women to do shit nowadays, we accept that the gays are entitled to exist, and some of us are vegetarian. What more do you want?

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(July 6, 2019 at 3:01 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Fun fact: Deaf Football players invented the huddle at Gallaudet University.

I beg your pardon?

(July 5, 2019 at 12:18 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

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(July 5, 2019 at 11:59 am)tackattack Wrote: @Gae Bolga it was public and on the field at a team huddle pre-game. I can only guess the mother didn't want their child to be perceived as different from the rest of the team because the prayer confused him.

We can say both cases weren't because of my religion, but of other people's personal beliefs. My boss thought that I should lie to customers. The mom thought I was singling out her son. I guess there is no such thing as persecution. Glad that was solved. It's not the Christian who gets beheaded's fault it's the wrong beliefs of the regime that does it?

No tack, lol... your boss expected you - not- to use your religion to make other people uncomfortable... because you weren’t working for a ducking church.  They didn’t sign up for that....but you couldn’t help but interject yourself because you believe that your silly shit is right and good.  You were the asshole in this situation...,.not the persecuted party.

To use the example you offered, if a religious asshole.  My case is made whe good and decent people like you - act- like the religious assholes you aren’t... because that’s the predictable effect of theistic belief.  You were not persecuted for your beliefs and you should be fucking ashamed for even suggesting as much... and you know that.  And yet that’s what you did, then.., and now.

Wtf are you even talking about with beheadibgs.... honestly, what....the....fuck?

Dude, lol, praying to god for a win at some little league shit isn’t just offensive to the irreligious, it’s offensive the the religious and to the very notion of god itself.  What were you thinking?

What are you thinking even now, pivoting to full freeze peach grift?  You’re better than this.

Sure, decades ago when religious silliness held brutal authority over the social hegemony no one would have dared to object.... but that doesn’t mean that it was a good idea... even then.  

Outsider test.

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So because I refused to lie to customers I was an asshole? If I didn't use my faith as an excuse and I grew up atheist in an atheist community but valued honesty, I would have reacted the same way. I would assume that your boss asking you to lie to customers is generally unaccepted by theists and atheists that value honesty. I don't see, from your OTF where, in that incident, I was being the asshole.
I was persecuted because of my honesty . Because I attributed my honesty to my faith, you find it invalid. I would be moral with or without faith, but all belief are tied and intergral. You could break down tons of things about me and separate them from my belief structure. I live as honestly as I can, out loud, because I feel it is my Christian duty.

(July 6, 2019 at 1:28 pm)Cecelia Wrote:

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(July 5, 2019 at 11:59 am)tackattack Wrote: I was an assistant volunteer coach. We having a team prayer for years and pray over our victory meals. It wasn't until an atheist parent's child joined and they felt the need to make it a point that I was released to save the drama. At no point was there discrimination or oppression of the boys based on their participation in the prayer or personal beliefs it was solely a SJW point. At no point was anyone forced to participate. I will agree that telemarketing wasn't the job for me. But I was still fired for refusing to lie. If I weren't a Christian and just refused to lie I probably would have been fired as well, so that's probably a bad example.

This here is the mindset of Christian Privilege in a nutshell.

Imagine for a moment that you lived in an area where Christianity wasn't the default.  This will be hard, because you've lived in such an area your entire life, and have no idea what it's like for anyone else.  But a little bit of empathy goes a long way, I find.

Now imagine that you lived in an area where everyone was an Atheist.  They have freedom of religion, but 75% of the country are atheists.  And you have a son who's on the baseball team.  Every day before the game the coach and most of the boys -- not all, since participation is not mandatory -- say an affirmation:  "There is no god, the bible's nothing but a lie.  Now let's play this game, and give it our best try!" 
You think the atheist children might not think differently of the ones who are saying it?  Because i can guarantee you the Christian children who say their prayer with their coach think differently of the ones who don't.  You might not see it -- but it's there.  There's a hidden pressure for these kids to go along with it, especially when it's by an authority figure.

But this is difficult for you to understand because you live in a country where your religion is the 'default'.  You can't experience the feeling these kids who don't participate have.  You can't even see it.  There's a peer pressure involved here.  That the prayer is 'voluntary' is meaningless when there's a pressure to conform.

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I can see the peer pressure involved. I wouldn't threaten a coach, or even pull my child out of that circle. If that was the standard practice, and my son had a problem, we would discuss desire for conformity vs. standing for what you believe. I would teach him that not everything has to be a fight. You don't have to rail against the system to stand for what you believe. If it's not against your beliefs then accept it as the cost of social interaction if it doesn't harm you. You could stand silently, not take a knee, pick your nose. If it does harm or you can't stand idly by, withdrawal, because participation is optional. As a daddy bear, I would use it as a teaching tool for my child personally, not an opportunity to soapbox to the community.

In case I didn't mention it before, I do suffer from white male, religious privilege. That doesn't mean I can't put myself in other peoples shoes or practice thought experiments to better define my beliefs and clarify my positions. Instead of assuming I can't see this or that it's impossible for me to know that, how about you just spell out for me why in either your situation or my situation that it's not persecution to fire the coach. I understand that the boy may feel pressure to conform. That is part of the social contract for joining any group. Just as engaging in conversation risks being offended by it's engagement socially. I understand that it was not part of my written duties to have a huddle or prayer before taking the field.

Before we go really deep down the rabbit hole of did I or his peers discriminate against him for not conforming, why don't we try something different. Why don't I get an atheist to tell me of a specific example where they personally were oppressed or discriminated against. I'm certain that some have been passed over for a promotion or a job interview or some other type of direct discrimination.