(August 8, 2019 at 2:25 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:

(August 8, 2019 at 2:06 pm)Drich Wrote: how do you think churches like that have that much control over people? They are indebted to that church or the church is paying them some how. this often comes in the way of food medical assistance, or even subsidized living.. your gf may not even know about this.. but her parents are fully indoctrinated so they have their hooks in somewhere. now. let's say you go over and tell her how to rebel against the church and god and she does. then lets say the church will cut them off cause they will.. now how much better off is your gf now? if she was cutting her self and going nuts in a decent house with all the modern conveniences with a full belly at night and all the meds the doctors say she needs... what the hell is going to happen when apart of that if not all of it goes away?

Can you support the family like the church supports the family? what is more important the stability of one whole family who needs to work out a few problems or your need to spend time with this chick by eliminating God?are you willing to support this whole family or provide for them the way the church does? if not then drop religious aspect to your mission and help your friend by bring other people in to address her self mutilation. there is nothing you can do for that, and if there is then she is a monster you do not want anything to do with anyway.

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come on man do I need to hand connect all the dots???? Did you even read the OP???

The chicks parents do not want her dealing with any non jw.

So what is dude? a atheist jw?

No he is just a horned up atheist looking to 'be friends with' this chick.

so what happens when he offers a way out of this life style a way out of her impending doom? it ultimately means the end or separation of herself from the church. which her parents strictly forbade probably because they are in deep with this church.. especially if she is special needs.

Any help he gives her will break the JW covenant which puts the whole family in violation of the church which unless they disowner the whole family will be cut off from whatever the church is giving.

So minimum the girl get kicked out of the house. a half crazy high medical needs person. with little to no way to pay for this stuff. worse case everybody is on the street...

So again unless dude is willing to step up and transition everyone out of a toxic faith, then he needs to find another way to wet his wick. Otherwise why does her needs out weigh the needs of the whole family?

You mind went straight to the OP having an ulterior motive.

Your mind...not his.

You twisted it from if it's not god hating then it must at least be a ploy for sex.  

Half crazy - at least I feel confident that you have an intimate relationship with crazy.

motives are irrelevant. everything I said is a very stern possibility in so far as how the parents can be indebted to the church considering her special needs and my prediction as to how the church will respond will be the same despite his motives.

That said... outside of sex or the possibility of some male female connection, why does a guy do anything for a girl with nothing material or social to gain? Now add crazy to the mix. why would anyone take on an element of crazy where all kinda of tings can go wrong and this thing blow up in his face 100 different ways because of the instability crazy brings, with NOTHING TO GAIN?

She is not rich according to the narritive, she doesn't have something material he wants... so what is left?

Now ball all of that up nd throw it away, because no matter what his motives, if he is not willing to support everyone the way the church is... it will harm the over all family far more than any good that will come from freeing one person from the clutches of this evil Jw religion and god.

Hey Dirch, ever hear the parable of The Good Samaritan? Did it ever occur to you that maybe there is no ulterior motive? There is no indication that this lady doesn't want to stop believing the Bible, just that she wants to escape a cult.

Self harm, drich. Self harm. That’s what “the church” is doing for this person.

But who are we to stop a pimp from slapping a prostitute, right? Unless we’re going to take his place.

(August 9, 2019 at 12:06 pm)ReptilianPeon Wrote: Hey Dirch, ever hear the parable of The Good Samaritan? Did it ever occur to you that maybe there is no ulterior motive? There is no indication that this lady doesn't want to stop believing the Bible, just that she wants to escape a cult.

Did the samaritan in the processing of helping one person destroy a whole family or did he count the cost of real help and made provisions for the future.

The only reason I have anything to say, is you have not yet once laid out a plan to help anyone one but yourself and this girl. again how autonomous is she with out direct support from her family? if she is dependant on them and you move in help her see there is no JW God... and she is kicked out of her family then what or who benefits then? 

you do because you get to be the hero again and provide her with a place to stay.

Put it the other way..

You help her out how?

what are the repercussions?

what if... a crazy couple who forbade anyone have contact with nonJW's freaks out and kicks out this girl.

Then who cares for her then..

Would her situation be better or worse?

Can you pay for her meds can you fill the role of a provider?

Do you even want that roll? Then why put yourself in such a position unless you want it.

If you do then how is this NOT benefiting you?

Can you see the paradox here, between what you claim and what your potential actions here tell about you?

If you are just a good samaritan, then why further endanger the person you are trying to help? why put a person in the position of needing even more help unless you want them indebted to you?

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(August 9, 2019 at 12:10 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Self harm, drich.  Self harm.  That’s what “the church” is doing for this person.

But who are we to stop a pimp from slapping a prostitute, right?  Unless we’re going to take his place.

hey smart guy..

There are other people you can alert when a person is a danger to themselves or others.. What moron decides to operate on themselves or a family member with no real knowledge or experience when professional help is a phone call away.

The same goes here who are any of you to say the church in this case is the only problem this person has? If you want to truly help do it the right way. if you don't know the right way google self harm and your zip code. then a list of professionals will come up.

No one but you is talking about helping her see there is no jw god. She came to that realization on her own. The only thing that was asked was what resources there are for helping someone escape a situation so unhealthy and destructive that it’s causing her to self harm.

There are, indeed, people to notify, as OP has been informed. Unfortunately, they may not be the same people that could help with the issue of homelessness. Catch - 22 on that count, atrocious in the simple fact that the jw worldview doesn’t leave any alternative on the table.

Feel free to continue demanding that an abused party must be left in the hands of their abusers for fear of harming the abusive family unit through removing its abused member... but understand that this is all that you’ll be doing.

(August 12, 2019 at 10:28 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: No one but you is talking about helping her see there is no jw god.  She came to that realization on her own.  The only thing that was asked was what resources there are for helping someone escape a situation so unhealthy and destructive that it’s causing her to self harm.

There are, indeed, people to notify, as OP has been informed.  Unfortunately, they may not be the same people that could help with the issue of homelessness.  Catch - 22 on that count, atrocious in the simple fact that the jw worldview doesn’t leave any alternative on the table.

Feel free to continue demanding that an abused party must be left in the hands of their abusers for fear of harming the abusive family unit through removing its abused member... but understand that this is all that you’ll be doing.

I'm not caught up on the thread at all, but I did catch this little statement. Situations don't cause self harm, people choose to. Situations or organizations may encourage self harm, or deprive necessary accommodations to prevent self harm, but they doesn't cause it. It is an individuals act choice to self harm, the onus is always on the actor. If this wasn't the case anyone in the same positions as the person or worse (like I said I'm not caught up, but I'm certain I could posit worse) would self harm. It's a poor coping mechanism and self destructive. It's not a chance for you to poke holes in an organization you are anti to, unless Jehovah's witnesses support/promote self-harm. Do they?

I don’t see the point of bickering over cause and strong encouragement.

Yes, alienation ( and the threat of alienation) from loved ones either causes or “strongly encourages” all manner of destructive mental states, including self harm.

Yes, the jw establishment uses this threat, and the demonstrated reality of their ability to compel their members to do so, to hold people hostage to their organization through familial ties. Friends, too.

If you leave, you will be cut off. Those who do not cut you off will be shunned, and may....themselves, be cut off.

So, you tell me. Does the jw establishment encourage, promote, or support self harm? I fear that you might be waiting for them to just say “kill yourself”....but it’s not as if that would matter, since they make it perfectly clear that you are to be treated as though you are already dead. This because, in their beliefs, having left their organization....you already are, and they don’t want that spreading.

Yeah, I’m against that. How about you?

No they encourage isolationism. If someone can accept that then it's far less self-destructive, especially since they disagree with the organization. Isolationism, especially for nihilists, does have a strong tendency for self destructive behaviors. I believe this stems from a loss of hope, exacerbated by the isolationism, which is anti-thetical to leaving said organization.

isolationism/alienation encourages destructive mental states, but the goal was to separate from the organization, it's an illogical conclusion that his is a bad outcome. The fact that someone chooses to self-harm instead of accepting the isolation that they supposedly want, is all on the actor not the organization.

I suppose we have different opinions here, is all. I’m not suprised when an abused person engages in self destructive behaviors and have no need to wash away their abusers responsibility for that state.

This particular individual is incapable of physically leaving without assistance, but can’t get that assistance until they’ve physically left.

(August 12, 2019 at 11:14 am)tackattack Wrote:

(August 12, 2019 at 10:28 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: No one but you is talking about helping her see there is no jw god.  She came to that realization on her own.  The only thing that was asked was what resources there are for helping someone escape a situation so unhealthy and destructive that it’s causing her to self harm.

There are, indeed, people to notify, as OP has been informed.  Unfortunately, they may not be the same people that could help with the issue of homelessness.  Catch - 22 on that count, atrocious in the simple fact that the jw worldview doesn’t leave any alternative on the table.

Feel free to continue demanding that an abused party must be left in the hands of their abusers for fear of harming the abusive family unit through removing its abused member... but understand that this is all that you’ll be doing.

I'm not caught up on the thread at all, but I did catch this little statement. Situations don't cause self harm, people choose to. Situations or organizations may encourage self harm, or deprive necessary accommodations to prevent self harm, but they doesn't cause it. It is an individuals act choice to self harm, the onus is always on the actor. If this wasn't the case anyone in the same positions as the person or worse (like I said I'm not caught up, but I'm certain I could posit worse) would self harm. It's a poor coping mechanism and self destructive. It's not a chance for you to poke holes in an organization you are anti to, unless Jehovah's witnesses support/promote self-harm. Do they?

I don't think people who self harm normally choose to self harm, man.