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RE: How Do I Help My Friend?
August 12, 2019 at 1:44 pm
(August 12, 2019 at 11:43 am)tackattack Wrote: No they encourage isolationism. If someone can accept that then it's far less self-destructive, especially since they disagree with the organization. Isolationism, especially for nihilists, does have a strong tendency for self destructive behaviors. I believe this stems from a loss of hope, exacerbated by the isolationism, which is anti-thetical to leaving said organization.
isolationism/alienation encourages destructive mental states, but the goal was to separate from the organization, it's an illogical conclusion that his is a bad outcome. The fact that someone chooses to self-harm instead of accepting the isolation that they supposedly want, is all on the actor not the organization.
I see you are back with word play though you didn't follow through with the last round.
What you are saying here is that a group cannot influence an individual...and that's bullshit...and you know it's bullshit.
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RE: How Do I Help My Friend?
August 13, 2019 at 11:12 am
@ arewethereyet -I'm not sure what round you're referring to. Please point me in the direction of a response I missed and I'd be happy to look at it again. You're right this is a word game because words have meanings. Gae pointed to the cause of the person's self harm to be the abuser. I don't deny that groups do influence people and in this case was most likely the strongest influencer to the negative behavior. But speaking from experience, people who self harm choose the method consciously. If the question is how to help, get her to a behavioral therapist to break down some of those negative cognitive feedback loops.
@ Gae Bolga - I'm not surprised either. I don't negate an abuser's responsibility on influencing individuals either. Perhaps we're not so much in disagreement of opinion rather than focusing on different things. You focus on the hurt caused, which you see as the root of the problem. I am focusing on the reaction/behavior which is a choice with it's own set of responsibilities, and I feel has more root causes than the primary surface one presented in this thread.
@ Grandizer - Yes they do. Every decision to act or react is a choice, conscious or unconscious. This person could have externalized their hurt and punched a wall or become a bully to others, gone on a shooting rampage, cried in a corner, withdrawn from the world, hung themselves, or a myriad of other behaviors. They may be more prone to self harm because that's what they've learned/seen/ been told or is easiest. We all choose everyday how we react. My point while the suffering and abuse is real and has accountability, the accountability is only to the harm they caused. Just as onus of the harm this person causes themselves would be just as culpable as if they went on a shooting rampage because of it. I don't see this person any different than a bully turned school shooter.
Bottom line, you can hold value for individuals at some basic level that all people share. You can see the abuse someone suffers as a reason for why they do what they do. You may even pity them for it or have some compassion. The minute you're preferential in whom you pity, you're making a value judgment on their actions. Why is someone who self harms more pitiable than a school shooter, because they only hurt themselves? The minute you go from reason to cause you're blame shifting and taking away accountability for actions, IMO. The person in question has suffered some abuse and those responsible should be held accountable. The person could have handled the abuse in many different ways as I listed above. Maybe even a positive way, like using that hatred and hear and self loathing to motivate a positive difference in their life.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
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RE: How Do I Help My Friend?
August 13, 2019 at 11:29 am
(This post was last modified: August 13, 2019 at 11:32 am by The Grand Nudger.)
This person is incapable of making that positive difference in their life without assistance.
That’s what this thread was about. Asking for resources to help her effect that change.
No one is going to be held accountable for anything. It’s their religion, couldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole. All that can be done is to help her remove herself from the situation....and, hopefully, that will remove the impetus to self harm. Realistically, however, the fallout from falling away from the jw faith has lifelong consequences for most.
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RE: How Do I Help My Friend?
August 14, 2019 at 5:30 pm
Do we blame the Samaritan for the actions of a family whose actions they have no control over? I don't know where you got the idea that I want to break up a family. Many Christians are perfectly happy if their child wants to go to a different Church to them, or indeed no Church at all. JW has been exposed as a cult and these people want to cut their daughter off from society!
I am not against people attending Church services if that is they choose and they are not being forced into it. These people put their cult above the well-being of their own children. This is not healthy.
Her own parents are doing a grand job of pushing her away from any kind of religion on their own. They don't need my help to that. As I said, I don't really care what people do with themselves, as long as they are not being forced into it.
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RE: How Do I Help My Friend?
August 19, 2019 at 9:05 am
(August 14, 2019 at 5:30 pm)ReptilianPeon Wrote:
Do we blame the Samaritan for the actions of a family whose actions they have no control over? I don't know where you got the idea that I want to break up a family. Many Christians are perfectly happy if their child wants to go to a different Church to them, or indeed no Church at all. JW has been exposed as a cult and these people want to cut their daughter off from society!
I am not against people attending Church services if that is they choose and they are not being forced into it. These people put their cult above the well-being of their own children. This is not healthy.
Her own parents are doing a grand job of pushing her away from any kind of religion on their own. They don't need my help to that. As I said, I don't really care what people do with themselves, as long as they are not being forced into it.
You are going to do what ever the hell it is you have set out to do from the beginning.. I really do not care.
You asked a question and my whole response is about potentially unforeseen consequences to your actions. in that the family or church might expectorate this special need girl. I simply wanted you to be ready to take on this role. or perhaps shine a light on the reason you are pushing so hard to take on this role.
Tell yourself whatever you like but if you true interest was with the girl it would not fall to you to save her. rather use the resources in the area avaible like a self harm hot line number and tell people around her to get her help as no one person is going to be able to take the load or work that comes with seeing someone ike this through their sickness.
The problem isn't God/church= cutting. It something broken and triggers= cutting this trigger is the church. what if it is simpler than that. what if the trigger is authority or just being told no? Watcha gonna do when her hulkamania runs wild on you?
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RE: How Do I Help My Friend?
August 19, 2019 at 1:30 pm
(August 19, 2019 at 9:05 am)Drich Wrote: (August 14, 2019 at 5:30 pm)ReptilianPeon Wrote:
Do we blame the Samaritan for the actions of a family whose actions they have no control over? I don't know where you got the idea that I want to break up a family. Many Christians are perfectly happy if their child wants to go to a different Church to them, or indeed no Church at all. JW has been exposed as a cult and these people want to cut their daughter off from society!
I am not against people attending Church services if that is they choose and they are not being forced into it. These people put their cult above the well-being of their own children. This is not healthy.
Her own parents are doing a grand job of pushing her away from any kind of religion on their own. They don't need my help to that. As I said, I don't really care what people do with themselves, as long as they are not being forced into it.
You are going to do what ever the hell it is you have set out to do from the beginning.. I really do not care.
You asked a question and my whole response is about potentially unforeseen consequences to your actions. in that the family or church might expectorate this special need girl. I simply wanted you to be ready to take on this role. or perhaps shine a light on the reason you are pushing so hard to take on this role.
Tell yourself whatever you like but if you true interest was with the girl it would not fall to you to save her. rather use the resources in the area avaible like a self harm hot line number and tell people around her to get her help as no one person is going to be able to take the load or work that comes with seeing someone ike this through their sickness.
The problem isn't God/church= cutting. It something broken and triggers= cutting this trigger is the church. what if it is simpler than that. what if the trigger is authority or just being told no? Watcha gonna do when her hulkamania runs wild on you?
expectorate
[ikˈspektəˌrāt]
VERB
- cough or spit out (phlegm) from the throat or lungs.
- Stop trying to sound like you know the language - it's pretty obvious, again, that you don't.
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RE: How Do I Help My Friend?
August 19, 2019 at 5:48 pm
(August 19, 2019 at 9:05 am)Drich Wrote: You are going to do what ever the hell it is you have set out to do from the beginning.. I really do not care.
You asked a question and my whole response is about potentially unforeseen consequences to your actions. in that the family or church might expectorate this special need girl. I simply wanted you to be ready to take on this role. or perhaps shine a light on the reason you are pushing so hard to take on this role.
Tell yourself whatever you like but if you true interest was with the girl it would not fall to you to save her. rather use the resources in the area avaible like a self harm hot line number and tell people around her to get her help as no one person is going to be able to take the load or work that comes with seeing someone ike this through their sickness.
The problem isn't God/church= cutting. It something broken and triggers= cutting this trigger is the church. what if it is simpler than that. what if the trigger is authority or just being told no? Watcha gonna do when her hulkamania runs wild on you?
JW beliefs are not mainstream Christianity. Most Churches are not cults. Stop trying to spin such a fashion as to claim that I hate all Christians. The problem is: "a cult = cutting", not "the Church = cutting". Most Churches do not encourage people not to speak with people not of that Church.
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RE: How Do I Help My Friend?
August 22, 2019 at 8:35 pm
The most you can do, realistically, is encourage her to find help and be there for her emotionally, as much as possible. Good luck
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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