(September 19, 2019 at 11:20 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: We like to think so, and yet.

You controlled your genetics?  You control what tastes good to you?  You control feeling hungry?  You control the circumstances of your life, society, and civilization and how that interfaces with the previous items?

No, ofc not.  That's complete and utter hubris.  No one, absolutely no one, is arguing that you have no control.  Whatever control we have is necessarrily limited, and demonstrably compromised....and not the strongest predictor of obesity or of weight loss.  

Everyone has "control"...and yet........

I have control over my reaction to hunger (feeling hunger and realizing I dont actually need food), and yes, I can stop myself from: binge eating, overeating, and consuming too much sweet, or salty, "bad foods." Absolutely I do, no question. If you don't think you can then you're incorrect.

But no, I don't control my genetics. But now you're melding things together, since I already admitted that income is a factor in it. I thought we were talking about biology here...

When arent we, when it comes to biological creatures?

I want to be a marathon runner. But, apparently, I'm S3 Jim Hopper from stranger things. Please hand me some choices!
(not that I wont take that, bet he gets laid)

(September 19, 2019 at 1:32 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Probably much larger than 10% considering the heaviest people in this country tend to also be the sickest, the poorest, and the least educated.

Okay. Even if it's 20%, that still means the vast majority of obese people are probably mentally healthy enough to at least make a conscious decision about losing weight.

Quote:If they’re sick, uneducated, and impoverished, I suspect they’re at quite a disadvantage when it comes to the knowledge, means, and opportunity necessary to achieve a total and permanent lifestyle change. Notice I didn’t say “impossible”; I said “disadvantage”. For a single, teen mom of three who lives in squalor, and works two jobs while simultaneously trying to get her GED, weight loss might not even be 10th on her immediate priority list. Someone has to give her a reason she should care at all, and a reason to think she can, before we can even talk about the logistics of how, and what types of expectations are reasonable for her at this stage in her life. It’s far more complicated than just, “she chooses not to, and that sucks”.

Good thing discerning between disadvantage and impossible. I was at a disadvantage too. I had plenty of disadvantages. I chose to lose the weight. Once again, you give one example of a person who just can't do it, I can give you dozens of examples of people who did. This really doesn't prove anything one way or another.

Quote:Those people in my example were real people, not a reductio ad absurdism. And sadly, there are a very many of them. It’s not that they can’t choose. It’s that they may not see a practical reason to give a shit right now. That’s why they need support rather than blame.

Okay... and? I have examples of real people too, who lost the weight, and are much happier now. People I personally know, worked out with and helped. This proves nothing. Saying "they need support rather than blame" says nothing. Unfortunately, they probably are to blame for their continued overeating. They also probably need support. The two are not mutually exclusive. If my friend is overeating, I'm not going to torture the person about it. But I will be honest with them if they ask my opinion. I'm not going to enable destructive behaviors just because they "need support."

If they want to talk about something, great. I'll be there for them as a friend, because I care about them. But supporting someone and enabling someone are two very different things.

Quote:And, that mind set is the reason those people get blamed (which never helps), rather than actually helped. Are you ready to revoke my reputation point yet? 😛

Once again, more attempts to discredit the concept of personal responsibility. "I can't lose weight because people won't tend to my needs which makes me feel bad and causes me to overeat."

Yea. Bullshit.

Quote:Succeeding in losing weight does not make one an expert on the reasons why others have so far failed. I don’t consider any of those things excuses either. I consider them road blocks that take a tremendous amount of work, resources, opportunity, and support to get around.  If society keeps telling these people that they’re “just making excuses”; ie. blaming them; don’t you think that hurts their chances at getting what they need to be successful?

Nope.

There's a concept you should look into called 'locus of control.' Read up on it.

You seem to have this concept of me that I'm running around pointing and laughing at fat people. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I empathize with the struggle. I also learned to overcome the struggle. So while I get how hard it can be, saying "it's hard" is just an excuse. At the end of the day, it's all excuses. We all have to manage our own minds and decide who we want to be. And we can all blame our problems in life on other people and factors outside of our control. Or, we can take control of what's in our control, and drive the direction of our lives toward something more positive.

Or, you can choose to blame anyone and everyone but yourself. And that's where I stop empathizing with people.

Or...we can understand that people's choices only amount to so much.

You haven't overcome shit, lol.  I see your picture.  You're in the same boat I am.  Doing okay, so far as you can, but not winning. 



How many pounds overweight are you, with all of your control?

(you do understand that we're both in the pipe for heart disease, right?)

(September 19, 2019 at 1:58 pm)EgoDeath Wrote:

(September 19, 2019 at 1:32 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Probably much larger than 10% considering the heaviest people in this country tend to also be the sickest, the poorest, and the least educated.

Okay. Even if it's 20%, that still means the vast majority of obese people are probably mentally healthy enough to at least make a conscious decision about losing weight.

 
You seem committed to missing my point, lol.

Quote:If they’re sick, uneducated, and impoverished, I suspect they’re at quite a disadvantage when it comes to the knowledge, means, and opportunity necessary to achieve a total and permanent lifestyle change. Notice I didn’t say “impossible”; I said “disadvantage”. For a single, teen mom of three who lives in squalor, and works two jobs while simultaneously trying to get her GED, weight loss might not even be 10th on her immediate priority list. Someone has to give her a reason she should care at all, and a reason to think she can, before we can even talk about the logistics of how, and what types of expectations are reasonable for her at this stage in her life. It’s far more complicated than just, “she chooses not to, and that sucks”.

Quote:Once again, you give one example of a person who just can't do it, I can give you dozens of examples of people who did. This really doesn't prove anything one way or another.

No...I gave you an objective snap shot of what the typical person struggling with obesity looks like based on the statistics.

Quote:Those people in my example were real people, not a reductio ad absurdism. And sadly, there are a very many of them. It’s not that they can’t choose. It’s that they may not see a practical reason to give a shit right now. That’s why they need support rather than blame.

Quote:Okay... and? I have examples of real people too, who lost the weight, and are much happier now. People I personally know, worked out with and helped. This proves nothing. Saying "they need support rather than blame" says nothing. Unfortunately, they probably are to blame for their continued overeating. They also probably need support. The two are not mutually exclusive.

All of this is wrong. As Nay_Sayer rightly pointed out, evidence supports the proposition that blame not only doesn’t help people who are struggling with weight, it actually hurts them, and increases their likelihood of gaining more weight. Saying “they need support rather than blame” is an evidence-based statement.  

Quote:If my friend is overeating, I'm not going to torture the person about it. But I will be honest with them if they ask my opinion. I'm not going to enable destructive behaviors just because they "need support."

What bizarre universe do you live in that “support” and “enabling” mean the same thing? When I say “support”, I’m talking means, resources, and opportunity; things like nutrition education, access to safe, healthful food, regular counseling, opportunities for physical activity, etc. You want people to choose to make this change in their life, but you don’t think they should have the tools necessary?

Quote:Once again, more attempts to discredit the concept of personal responsibility. "I can't lose weight because people won't tend to my needs which makes me feel bad and causes me to overeat."

I’m not sure how you got that from anything I said.

Quote:Succeeding in losing weight does not make one an expert on the reasons why others have so far failed. I don’t consider any of those things excuses either. I consider them road blocks that take a tremendous amount of work, resources, opportunity, and support to get around.  If society keeps telling these people that they’re “just making excuses”; ie. blaming them; don’t you think that hurts their chances at getting what they need to be successful?

Quote:Nope.

Then you haven’t evaluated the evidence.

Quote:Or, you can choose to blame anyone and everyone but yourself. And that's where I stop empathizing with people.

I’m not sure where I said that people who are struggling with weight blame everyone else for their weight problem.

@LadyForCamus

And you seem committed to missing my point. Oh well.

Okay, this is getting old. We clearly don't see eye to eye, and I'm willing to agree to disagree.

Losing weight requires a series of choices that amount to a change in one's lifestyle. The key word in that sentence is "choices." Is it tough? Sure. But you don't need a team of doctors, counselors and dieticians to do it. I'm sure that's what you would like people to think, because it means you have a job. And that's nifty for you.

At the end of the day, we all have to ask ourselves who we want to be.

Drugs, alcohol, food, cigarettes, gambling, sex... we can choose from an array of different addictions to stifle our feelings with. Or, we can choose to live happy lives and try our best to be healthy. It doesn't require perfection, but it does require a conscious choice and some effort. I know that's becoming a rare concept in 2019, but that's what it is.

Thanks.

(September 19, 2019 at 3:32 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: @LadyForCamus

And you seem committed to missing my point. Oh well.

Okay, this is getting old. We clearly don't see eye to eye, and I'm willing to agree to disagree.

Losing weight requires a series of choices that amount to a change in one's lifestyle. The key word in that sentence is "choices." Is it tough? Sure. But you don't need a team of doctors, counselors and dieticians to do it. I'm sure that's what you would like people to think, because it means you have a job. And that's nifty for you.

At the end of the day, we all have to ask ourselves who we want to be.

Drugs, alcohol, food, cigarettes, gambling, sex... we can choose from an array of different addictions to stifle our feelings with. Or, we can choose to live happy lives and try our best to be healthy. It doesn't require perfection, but it does require a conscious choice and some effort. I know that's becoming a rare concept in 2019, but that's what it is.

Thanks.

And, you don’t want to have an evidence-based discussion. You want to discuss the subject through the lens of personal anecdote. That’s fine. Take care.

@LadyForCamus

"Evidence" and "statistics" do not dictate the whole of reality. They can influence our opinions, which in this case, they do influence my opinion. I'm not disagreeing with the statistics. I'm saying that personal choice is still personal choice, regardless of what statistics say. Take care.

edit:

When you can show me a statistic that proves that people have no control over their weight, I'll consider looking into that and altering my opinion. Thanks.

Sure is, and its still as limited as it's always been known to be. Decide to be better than you are. 123 go~!

Honestly, why would anyone listen to a fat piece of shit like you, Ego?

(September 19, 2019 at 3:39 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: edit:

When you can show me a statistic that proves that people have no control over their weight, I'll consider looking into that and altering my opinion. Thanks.

Well, it’s a good thing that was never my argument, isn’t it? This is getting silly.

My argument is that disadvantaged people (sick, uneducated, impoverished, etc.) have more barriers to successful weight management, and have a statistically better chance of successful weight management with support. Contrary to your assertion, having “a team of doctors, counselors, and dietitians” absolutely improves a patient’s long-term weight loss outcomes, which is why I’ll always have a job. The evidence for this is literally everywhere, whether you choose to believe it or not.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29701298/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5687103/

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fu...le/2702873

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-934...0691-9/pdf

https://www.medscape.com/answers/123702-...of-obesity

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-10-l...eight.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24842735/