(November 23, 2019 at 4:06 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote:

(November 22, 2019 at 11:12 pm)Southern Atheist Wrote: I am new to atheism but consider myself an agnostic atheist, meaning I don't believe in any god claims but I do not claim there is no god. While I think your reason - there is no evidence for god where there should be - is a bit of evidence itself against there being a god I don't think it goes as far as saying there is for sure no god, your counter that defeats all arguments for god... well I don't think its a good one honestly, your giving a god you don't believe actually exist attributes and you have no evidence he actually has these attributes if he were to exist, if there is a god we can't be sure he has what we would know as a brain, we wouldn't know how he functions at all, it would likely be beyond our comprehension at this time. Just because we have no evidence that something can't think without a brain doesn't mean it isn't possible because we don't know everything. Keep reading on these forums and check out some atheist literature or shows like the atheist experience there isn't a single argument that defeats all arguments for god, from what I have seen there simply isn't enough evidence for me to believe that a god exist although again I don't make the claim he doesn't exist.

I don't claim that a God with no brain is impossible but it doesn't seem very likely. Worse than Santa Claus because at least Santa has a brain. If there is no evidence where there should be for something then that thing likely doesn't exist. I disagree that it doesn't defeat all arguments for God because you can just say "how can God do that without a brain or neurons" e.g. "how can God create a universe without a brain or neurons"

"The theist could respond that their god can think and have thoughts without a human/animal like brain and neurons, why, because it's god. "

Yes but then that's not actual evidence that a God can think without neurons/a brain so their argument has failed.

The point I was trying to make is what evidence do you have that a god would have to have a brain?

One counter to my argument could be that God is all-powerful so doesn't require a brain:

My counter is that we humans are very poorly designed: We eat and breath down the same tube, we feel excess amounts of pain, we die after less than 115 years, our eyes can go blind etc etc so how could something all powerful have created us? Something with limited power almost certainly created us therefore. However this thing of limited power doesn't have a brain/neurons so almost certainly has less power than a human. How could this theist God create a universe? It makes most sense that something of limited power - nature - created us.

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(November 23, 2019 at 4:34 pm)Southern Atheist Wrote:

(November 23, 2019 at 4:06 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: I don't claim that a God with no brain is impossible but it doesn't seem very likely. Worse than Santa Claus because at least Santa has a brain. If there is no evidence where there should be for something then that thing likely doesn't exist. I disagree that it doesn't defeat all arguments for God because you can just say "how can God do that without a brain or neurons" e.g. "how can God create a universe without a brain or neurons"

"The theist could respond that their god can think and have thoughts without a human/animal like brain and neurons, why, because it's god. "

Yes but then that's not actual evidence that a God can think without neurons/a brain so their argument has failed.

The point I was trying to make is what evidence do you have that a god would have to have a brain?

Because thought comes from the brain/neurons. There is no evidence that it can come from something/somewhere else. But again my counter to my own argument is that God is all powerful. See above.

(November 23, 2019 at 5:12 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: One counter to my argument could be that God is all-powerful so doesn't require a brain:

My counter is that we humans are very poorly designed: We eat and breath down the same tube, we feel excess amounts of pain, we die after less than 115 years, our eyes can go blind etc etc so how could something all powerful have created us? Something with limited power almost certainly created us therefore. However this thing of limited power doesn't have a brain/neurons so almost certainly has less power than a human. How could this theist God create a universe? It makes most sense that something of limited power - nature - created us.

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(November 23, 2019 at 4:34 pm)Southern Atheist Wrote: The point I was trying to make is what evidence do you have that a god would have to have a brain?

Because thought comes from the brain/neurons. There is no evidence that it can come from something/somewhere else. But again my counter to my own argument is that God is all powerful. See above.

Ah I see where you are going, interesting take to say the least, I am curious to what a theist's reason to our seemingly poor design is, most of what I have heard is they think animals are created very well but examples like the Laryngeal nerve in a giraffe show that is not the case, no engineer would make that nerve take the route it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OYAIAS_NbE

(November 22, 2019 at 10:22 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: My counter for atheism that beats all arguments for God: God doesn't have a brain or neurons - he's immaterial not made of matter or energy - so how can he think thoughts or have knowledge? Without a brain or neurons he couldn't create a universe or create anything else.



I've never got any evidence that God can think without a brain or neurons.

I think you would lose an argument because of this statement, you are claiming that knowledge and thoughts can be achieved only by our means of perception. 
Why is this wrong? It is not, but you can t prove that this is the only way to achieve knowledge or thoughts and the  burden of proof falls on you.
The only point atheist have (which is not actually a point) is that we Don t know that a deity exists so we are not obligated to act upon a deity based system.

(November 23, 2019 at 5:12 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: One counter to my argument could be that God is all-powerful so doesn't require a brain:

My counter is that we humans are very poorly designed: We eat and breath down the same tube, we feel excess amounts of pain, we die after less than 115 years, our eyes can go blind etc etc so how could something all powerful have created us? Something with limited power almost certainly created us therefore. However this thing of limited power doesn't have a brain/neurons so almost certainly has less power than a human. How could this theist God create a universe? It makes most sense that something of limited power - nature - created us.

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(November 23, 2019 at 4:34 pm)Southern Atheist Wrote: The point I was trying to make is what evidence do you have that a god would have to have a brain?

Because thought comes from the brain/neurons. There is no evidence that it can come from something/somewhere else. But again my counter to my own argument is that God is all powerful. See above.

Many Christians would say that the "fall of man" is why we feel pain and experience death and such.

(November 23, 2019 at 7:10 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote:

(November 22, 2019 at 10:22 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: My counter for atheism that beats all arguments for God: God doesn't have a brain or neurons - he's immaterial not made of matter or energy - so how can he think thoughts or have knowledge? Without a brain or neurons he couldn't create a universe or create anything else.



I've never got any evidence that God can think without a brain or neurons.

I think you would lose an argument because of this statement, you are claiming that knowledge and thoughts can be achieved only by our means of perception. 
Why is this wrong? It is not, but you can t prove that this is the only way to achieve knowledge or thoughts and the  burden of proof falls on you.
The only point atheist have (which is not actually a point) is that we Don t know that a deity exists so we are not obligated to act upon a deity based system.

But there is no evidence where there should be of thoughts coming from anywhere other than the brain/neurons.

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(November 23, 2019 at 7:23 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(November 23, 2019 at 5:12 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: One counter to my argument could be that God is all-powerful so doesn't require a brain:

My counter is that we humans are very poorly designed: We eat and breath down the same tube, we feel excess amounts of pain, we die after less than 115 years, our eyes can go blind etc etc so how could something all powerful have created us? Something with limited power almost certainly created us therefore. However this thing of limited power doesn't have a brain/neurons so almost certainly has less power than a human. How could this theist God create a universe? It makes most sense that something of limited power - nature - created us.

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Because thought comes from the brain/neurons. There is no evidence that it can come from something/somewhere else. But again my counter to my own argument is that God is all powerful. See above.

Many Christians would say that the "fall of man" is why we feel pain and experience death and such.

Yes but that would make their God very unpowerful. He couldn't even stop us from feeling pain. Thanks for the response how do you counter it?

(November 23, 2019 at 7:26 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote:

(November 23, 2019 at 7:10 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: I think you would lose an argument because of this statement, you are claiming that knowledge and thoughts can be achieved only by our means of perception. 
Why is this wrong? It is not, but you can t prove that this is the only way to achieve knowledge or thoughts and the  burden of proof falls on you.
The only point atheist have (which is not actually a point) is that we Don t know that a deity exists so we are not obligated to act upon a deity based system.

But there is no evidence where there should be of thoughts coming from anywhere other than the brain/neurons.

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(November 23, 2019 at 7:23 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Many Christians would say that the "fall of man" is why we feel pain and experience death and such.

Yes but that would make their God very unpowerful. He couldn't even stop us from feeling pain. Thanks for the response how do you counter it?

In the Bayesian sense, I don't exactly disagree with you.

I think the issue, though, is we're talking metaphysics and consciousness and such. Stuff way beyond what we've evolved to think about in our everyday lives. And I don't think we can be almost certain that thoughts could only come from brain/neurons.

As for pain and death and such, God might have intentionally allowed the Fall to happen for the sake of some greater unknown good. That's one counter.

(November 23, 2019 at 7:38 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(November 23, 2019 at 7:26 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: But there is no evidence where there should be of thoughts coming from anywhere other than the brain/neurons.

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Yes but that would make their God very unpowerful. He couldn't even stop us from feeling pain. Thanks for the response how do you counter it?

In the Bayesian sense, I don't exactly disagree with you.

I think the issue, though, is we're talking metaphysics and consciousness and such. Stuff way beyond what we've evolved to think about in our everyday lives. And I don't think we can be almost certain that thoughts could only come from brain/neurons.

As for pain and death and such, God might have intentionally allowed the Fall to happen for the sake of some greater unknown good. That's one counter.

But thoughts coming from brains/neurons is the only evidence we have of thoughts. If you're going to posit a God you should define him as something that makes *more* sense. Like a material God with a brain (not that that makes sense either.)

I meant what is your counter as an atheist to the "fall of man" argument?

What greater good would that be? Again I see no reason for us to have pain, very poor design.

EDIT: Got the argument down to a single tweet:

How can God create a universe/think thoughts/have knowledge if he doesn't have a brain or neurons? You might answer that God is all-powerful so doesn't need a brain. How can God be all-powerful if we humans are so poorly design? #Atheism.

The amount of power that something has does not contribute in the least to it having thoughts or awareness.

Black holes are very powerful and I have reason to believe that any of them are conscious and have thoughts

A theist "claims" that a god exists.
A theist "claims" that a god is all powerful.
A theist makes all kinds of claims about something that hasn't been shown to even exist.
If it doesn't exist, it doesn't have any attributes.
If it does exist, we have no way to determine ANY of it's attributes, let alone the limits of those attributes.

You can't define something into existence.