(November 28, 2019 at 10:27 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Some people just don't put stock into everything random nutbars say.

Whaaa? Everything I say is the ultimate truth!

(November 22, 2019 at 10:22 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: Atheism: The belief that God almost certainly doesn't exist.

I think most atheists will disagree with this definition, the terms "almost" and "certainly" assume that you have some precise metric or probability measure of beings that might or might not exist. Also associating atheism with belief doesn't seem to serve your position very much.

(November 22, 2019 at 10:22 pm)Tom Fearnley Wrote: Reason for this: There is no evidence for god where there should be (not just that "there is no evidence..." that's agnosticism.)

Counter from theists: God created the universe/did the fine tuning/created humans/the Kalam/The argument from contingency/the Fine Tuning argument etc etc.

My counter for atheism that beats all arguments for God: God doesn't have a brain or neurons - he's immaterial not made of matter or energy - so how can he think thoughts or have knowledge? Without a brain or neurons he couldn't create a universe or create anything else.

With all due respect, your counter is ridiculous under any reasonable conception of God. Why should God have a brain to create a universe ? Any believer can imagine countless possibilities for an infinitely powerful being to create a universe without invoking a brain.

Quote:Any believer can imagine countless possibilities for an infinitely powerful being to create a universe without invoking a brain.

Yup.  Believers can imagine all sorts of silly, stupid things.

Boru

Are you sure you’ve thought this through? Most importantly Atheism is most certainly not the belief that god almost (sic?) certainly does not exist. It is a non position not the wishy washy compromise of agnosticism, Atheists do not equivocate “maybe there is a god maybe there isn’t, I just don’t know” Atheists do not believe a god exists. It is not a philosophical position it is not “just like the religious but the opposite” It is not a position one advocates or argues I do not have the belief that god exists but nor do Believe it does not exist it is a non position. Again do not mistake it for uncertainty if you ask me if I believe god exists my answer is no, I do not believe that. But there is no desire to convince anyone of my non belief only believers try to convince others to adopt their beliefs. any self identified atheist who feels compelled to convince others god does not exist needs to consider they aren’t atheist after all and that’s ok atheist is not a club or group one can belong to it is merely the term for certain people who do not believe god exists. Lots of people don’t believe in god but are not atheists in fact I’d guess most non believers are not atheist. I’m certainly not an atheist. Meaning I don’t care. If god exists it would not affect me at all. I have my beliefs and they will not change because some sky fairy who does really fucked up stuff tells me to do something messed up like stoning women because they had the audacity to get raped or to cut the tip of my kids penis off to remind me gods my dude. So I’m apathetic my answer to the question is who cares we got stuff to do if he wants to help fine if not he can f$&! off.

Also, you are aware that logically it is not possible to prove a negative right? That being the case why make the attempt. Another problem is I am not sure what would motivate an atheist to attempt to convince others to not believe something. I couldn’t imagine saying “hey, you know what I don’t believe? Turtles! And you shouldn’t either. I mean we don’t get to go to unicorn fairy land if we convince others to adopt our non position. What do I care whether others believe in sky fairies? I’ve found that you can’t use logic to persuade people from a position they didn’t use logic to get to.

(November 29, 2019 at 6:58 pm)Apathyst Wrote: Are you sure you’ve thought this through? Most importantly Atheism is most certainly not the belief that god almost (sic?) certainly does not exist. It is a non position not the wishy washy compromise of agnosticism, Atheists do not equivocate “maybe there is a god maybe there isn’t, I just don’t know” Atheists do not believe a god exists. It is not a philosophical position it is not “just like the religious but the opposite” It is not a position one advocates or argues I do not have the belief that god exists but nor do Believe it does not exist it is a non position. Again do not mistake it for uncertainty if you ask me if I believe god exists my answer is no, I do not believe that. But there is no desire to convince anyone of my non belief only believers try to convince others to adopt their beliefs.  any self identified atheist who feels compelled to convince others god does not exist needs to consider they aren’t atheist after all and that’s ok atheist is not a club or group one can belong to it is merely the term for certain people who do not believe god exists. Lots of people don’t believe in god but are not atheists in fact I’d guess most non believers are not atheist. I’m certainly not an atheist. Meaning I don’t care. If god exists it would not affect me at all. I have my beliefs and they will not change because some sky fairy who does really fucked up stuff tells me to do something messed up like stoning women because they had the audacity to get raped or to cut the tip of my kids penis off to remind me gods my dude. So I’m apathetic my answer to the question is who cares we got stuff to do if he wants to help fine if not he can f$&! off.

Also, you are aware that logically it is not possible to prove a negative right? That being the case why make the attempt. Another problem is I am not sure what would motivate an atheist to attempt to convince others to not believe something. I couldn’t imagine saying “hey, you know what I don’t believe? Turtles! And you shouldn’t either. I mean we don’t get to go to unicorn fairy land if we convince others to adopt our non position. What do I care whether others believe in sky fairies? I’ve found that you can’t use logic to persuade people from a position they didn’t use logic to get to.

I'm not yet understanding the various categories that you describe.

Let's say that "I believe X" means "I hold X to be true." 

And let's work with the statement "I believe that there is a God." 

It looks to me as though agnostics, atheists, and apathetics would all be people who DON'T hold that statement to be true. 

Isn't that a major similarity among all three of those groups?

(November 29, 2019 at 7:27 pm)Belacqua Wrote: [quote='Apathyst' pid='1944693' dateline='1575068326']

Let's say that "I believe X" means "I hold X to be true." 

And let's work with the statement "I believe that there is a God." 

It looks to me as though agnostics, atheists, and apathetics would all be people who DON'T hold that statement to be true. 

Isn't that a major similarity among all three of those groups?

The distinction is subtle and it’s been so long even I am a little fuzzy. But there is a difference between an affirmative belief that gods don’t exist and merely not possessing a belief that gods exist. It may well be a distinction without a difference and was tangential at best to the gravamen of my disquisition.

(November 29, 2019 at 9:54 pm)Apathyst Wrote:

(November 29, 2019 at 7:27 pm)Belacqua Wrote: there is a difference between an affirmative belief that gods don’t exist and merely not possessing a belief that gods exist. It may well be a distinction without a difference and was tangential at best to the gravamen of my disquisition.

OK, if that's the message, then, sure, I agree.

It sounded more complicated than that, but what you say in this latest post seems very clear. 

I disagree, however, that atheism is a non-condition. If you are a grownup, and you've heard and rejected the claims made by religious people, then you have a position. (This is true for both strong and weak atheists.)

Several people apparently want to say that they reject religious claims without thought, without logic or reasoning, without any standards of evidence. I suppose this is possible, if they are entirely non-thinking creatures of habit. It's not something I would boast about, though. And as you say, if those atheists are atheists NOT based on logic, then logic can't be used to oppose their position either.

(November 28, 2019 at 8:38 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Actually, arguments are needed for strong or positive atheism. 

You say "actually" but I never said "strong or positive atheism" I said "atheism".

(November 30, 2019 at 8:24 am)ThinkingIsThinking Wrote:

(November 28, 2019 at 8:38 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Actually, arguments are needed for strong or positive atheism. 

You say "actually" but I never said "strong or positive atheism" I said "atheism".

And there's more than one version of atheism.  If you say 'Arguments are not needed for atheism', the clear implication is that arguments are not need for any version of atheism. And that's simply not true.

Boru

(November 29, 2019 at 7:27 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 29, 2019 at 6:58 pm)Apathyst Wrote: Are you sure you’ve thought this through? Most importantly Atheism is most certainly not the belief that god almost (sic?) certainly does not exist. It is a non position not the wishy washy compromise of agnosticism, Atheists do not equivocate “maybe there is a god maybe there isn’t, I just don’t know” Atheists do not believe a god exists. It is not a philosophical position it is not “just like the religious but the opposite” It is not a position one advocates or argues I do not have the belief that god exists but nor do Believe it does not exist it is a non position. Again do not mistake it for uncertainty if you ask me if I believe god exists my answer is no, I do not believe that. But there is no desire to convince anyone of my non belief only believers try to convince others to adopt their beliefs.  any self identified atheist who feels compelled to convince others god does not exist needs to consider they aren’t atheist after all and that’s ok atheist is not a club or group one can belong to it is merely the term for certain people who do not believe god exists. Lots of people don’t believe in god but are not atheists in fact I’d guess most non believers are not atheist. I’m certainly not an atheist. Meaning I don’t care. If god exists it would not affect me at all. I have my beliefs and they will not change because some sky fairy who does really fucked up stuff tells me to do something messed up like stoning women because they had the audacity to get raped or to cut the tip of my kids penis off to remind me gods my dude. So I’m apathetic my answer to the question is who cares we got stuff to do if he wants to help fine if not he can f$&! off.

Also, you are aware that logically it is not possible to prove a negative right? That being the case why make the attempt. Another problem is I am not sure what would motivate an atheist to attempt to convince others to not believe something. I couldn’t imagine saying “hey, you know what I don’t believe? Turtles! And you shouldn’t either. I mean we don’t get to go to unicorn fairy land if we convince others to adopt our non position. What do I care whether others believe in sky fairies? I’ve found that you can’t use logic to persuade people from a position they didn’t use logic to get to.

I'm not yet understanding the various categories that you describe.

Let's say that "I believe X" means "I hold X to be true." 

And let's work with the statement "I believe that there is a God." 

It looks to me as though agnostics, atheists, and apathetics would all be people who DON'T hold that statement to be true. 

Isn't that a major similarity among all three of those groups?

Aren't they all human? Isn't that a major similarity among all three of those groups?

Think about that and how it shows how puerile that post of yours was.