(December 21, 2019 at 11:47 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Nuh uh.  Just the one day.

Boru

Yeah, but them days was ~2,000,000,000 years long.

(December 21, 2019 at 6:55 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:The theory of evolution isn’t monolithic as far as I know. New discoveries have been made which tweak the theory from time to time.

True, but trite.  This is the case with all scientific theories, it is part of the self-correcting nature of science.

The same is true of any “ology” based in its nature of being the study of. This must include theology eschatology etc.

Quote:Can you apply the same standard to your own beliefs?

Yup.

Quote:BTW I threw out the idea of hell because I can’t find its scriptural basis not based on “proof”, whatever that is.

 
A cursory reading of scripture would seem to indicate that the people responsible for the Bible certainly did believe in a literal, eternal Hell.  I respectfully suggest that the real reason you abandoned the idea of hell is that the notion of eternal torture is repugnant to you.  And that's a good thing.

partly true but as i’ve said before, the translation from the original language does not express the original meaning. This is my main reason for abandonment.

Quote:Their is no proof of evolution

Other than watching it happen, you mean. Show me where we can watch it happen before our eyes. Is there any evidence now other than “scientific data”. I rely on biblical text you rely on scientific text or are you a scientist doing carbon dating etc?

Quote:but many people believe it because “science says so”,

This is probably true. But even if it is, it doesn't alter the fact that evolution is also accepted because it happens to be true.

Prove it!

Quote:even though scientists can’t even agree 100% on the age of the earth or anything else.

Bearing in mind that the percentage of scientists who disagree with fundamental scientific principles (such as biological evolution) is an insignificant number.
But I'm getting the feeling that you really don't grasp how sciences works.  A certain level of disagreement is the basis of scientific progress - if all scientists agreed with each other always and about everything, science stops being science and becomes dogma. 

All realms of study work off the better principle. As data comes in more understanding arrives. My reason for not believing in the big bang theory must have something to do with the name. I’ve never seen or heard of something going “bang” and ending in anything but rubble (laws of thermodynamics). Also, how is it that the first “forms of life” lived for billions of years and the most advanced can only live for less than 120 years? I have never seen something design itself. I have seen adaption but not evolutionary design. It just so happens that humans are designed with 2 eyes 2 ears. This is what allows visual and aural perspective as we know.


Boru

I see nothing around me that does not have design. Cars, planes, computers, people, animals, trees, and many others too many to list have design. If someone told us that planes and cars were part of the evolutionary process we’d all laugh. These are all feats of human design that don’t even compare in complexity to the human eye and processes of sight.
If things design themselves show me something that is designing itself. If it is designing itself, then it must be intelligent beyond human intelligence which can’t even build a computer that can rival a human brain. If it is not designing itself then what is the source behind its design?

Max

(December 21, 2019 at 12:53 pm)maxolla Wrote: ...If someone told us that planes and cars were part of the evolutionary process we’d all laugh.

Quote:I see nothing around me that does not have design. Cars, planes, computers, people, animals, trees, and many others too many to list have design.

The man made things yup .The non man made things that's  credulity 

Quote: If someone told us that planes and cars were part of the evolutionary process we’d all laugh.

Umm technology evolves no he same as life but it does 

Plus i'll point the reason that would be silly is because those aren't biological  

Quote:These are all feats of human design that don’t even compare in complexity to the human eye and processes of sight.

Which actually undermines your point 

Quote:If things design themselves show me something that is designing itself.

You have yet to show non man made things are designed period 

Quote: If it is designing itself, then it must be intelligent beyond human intelligence which can’t even build a computer that can rival a human brain

See above 

Quote:If it is not designing itself then what is the source behind its design?

See above

(December 21, 2019 at 1:23 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(December 21, 2019 at 12:53 pm)maxolla Wrote: ...If someone told us that planes and cars were part of the evolutionary process we’d all laugh.

We are ground animals. If we were to take flight, surely wouldn't be on angels wings, barring blue angels, OFC.

I have taken flight, with Taka, a japonese skydiving instructor, a true pro. I have evidence for this.

(December 17, 2019 at 1:09 pm)maxolla Wrote: What would be a proper demonstration of existence?  What would a God have to do to prove to you that it existed?

I don't know what a god is supposed to be, so define one properly and I'll tell you what I need.

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(December 21, 2019 at 12:53 pm)maxolla Wrote: I see nothing around me that does not have design.  Cars, planes, computers, people, animals, trees, and many others too many to list have design.  If someone told us that planes and cars were part of the evolutionary process we’d all laugh.  These are all feats of human design that don’t even compare in complexity to the human eye and processes of sight.
If things design themselves show me something that is designing itself.  If it is designing itself, then it must be intelligent beyond human intelligence which can’t even build a computer that can rival a human brain.  If it is not designing itself then what is the source behind its design?

Max

You see design in things that weren't designed. 
That is your issue not ours.

Quote:What would be a proper demonstration of existence?  What would a God have to do to prove to you that it existed?

If he  was god he should already know that

(December 18, 2019 at 10:30 pm)maxolla Wrote: So, I think there is some agreement on why we seek to communicate with other people regarding their beliefs.  I would say that more questions are necessary.  

What would convince you with out a shadow of a doubt that God does exist?  What specifically would be necessary for that belief to become absolutely truth for you?

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Kind of late replying...


Yes, more questions (and answers) are necessary.

I am not sure what would convince me a god or gods exists. It would depend on the description of the god under question.

Just to put this into context, it is often the case, that the type of evidence that ends up proving a proposition, is unknown before it is discovered. For example, before the microscope was invented, followed by the discovery of bacteria in 1676, how would we have known that there is evidence that bacteria were responsible for most disease?

But if a god does exist, and it is one of the gods described by theists as one who allegedly wants me to know it exists, then it should know what it would take to convince me. If said god continues to play the longest game of hide and seek in history with those of us that are not gullible, how is that my fault?

All I know, is if this god does want to be known, it seems like all its earthly representatives and apologists have done a horrible job demonstrating its existence.

Ancient texts, personal testimony, miracle claims, healings, etc, do not hold up to scrutiny. The philosophical arguments: Kalam, teleological & design, ontological, and presuppositional arguments are all fallacious. So, until such a time that theists are able to meet their burden of proof that a god exists, I will remain to be unconvinced.

maxolla Wrote: even though scientists can’t even agree 100% on the age of the earth or anything else.

Whoever told you that is lying in order to deceive you. Be wary. They are misrepresenting in oder to sow doubt and lead you into their trap.

(December 21, 2019 at 2:28 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 10:30 pm)maxolla Wrote: So, I think there is some agreement on why we seek to communicate with other people regarding their beliefs.  I would say that more questions are necessary.  

What would convince you with out a shadow of a doubt that God does exist?  What specifically would be necessary for that belief to become absolutely truth for you?

---

Kind of late replying...


Yes, more questions (and answers) are necessary.

I am not sure what would convince me a god or gods exists. It would depend on the description of the god under question.

Just to put this into context, it is often the case, that the type of evidence that ends up proving a proposition, is unknown before it is discovered. For example, before the microscope was invented, followed by the discovery of bacteria in 1676, how would we have known that there is evidence that bacteria were responsible for most disease?

But if a god does exist, and it is one of the gods described by theists as one who allegedly wants me to know it exists, then it should know what it would take to convince me. If said god continues to play the longest game of hide and seek in history with those of us that are not gullible, how is that my fault?

All I know, is if this god does want to be known, it seems like all its earthly representatives and apologists have done a horrible job demonstrating its existence.

Ancient texts, personal testimony, miracle claims, healings, etc, do not hold up to scrutiny. The philosophical arguments: Kalam, teleological & design, ontological, and presuppositional arguments are all fallacious. So, until such a time that theists are able to meet their burden of proof that a god exists, I will remain to be unconvinced.

Everything you said makes perfect sense to me other than your final few sentences. It might be that I just don’t understand your logic. I exist and I feel no burden of proof to prove it to you. I am not here to prove to you that God exists because we all know, that would be an impossibility even if you had given the evidence required for your belief to be positive. If you were to say to me in your next post reply “prove that you exist” I would not could not and would feel no burden to do so.

I wonder what the world would look like right now if all of the people that doubted an actually existing God would demand that he prove himself and he was the sort of God that allowed his creation to demand it and he was the type God that would give it to them. I imagine if all was upended at the whim of doubters the world might be quite chaotic.

I accept your reasons for doubting that God exists because they are yours. If my existence was based on constant proof I might be spending most my time proving to unreasonable demands of proof. My proof of my existence is the fact that I do exist. God’s proof of his existence is the same. Whether you believe or doubt, is your reality obviously.
I have a willingness to believe and it’s not based in God’s constant proving himself to me. The fact that he does not cower to my demands in prayer and proof acts is a fact of his being not in subjection to me, but the other way around.

As for miracles...Do you have kids? Have you seen a live birth? Procreation is a fact miracle and can be seen here and now. Of course some say that’s not a miracle at all. I say the world around me is a miracle, and to many others it's just a fact pattern based in some theory. A theory that accounts for our planet being the exact distance from the sun to support life and many many other statistical phenomena as just that.

Max

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(December 21, 2019 at 2:54 pm)Alex K Wrote:

maxolla Wrote: even though scientists can’t even agree 100% on the age of the earth or anything else.

Whoever told you that is lying in order to deceive you. Be wary. They are misrepresenting in oder to sow doubt and lead you into their trap.

What trap? Sow doubt?
What is the actual age of the earth? Can you tell me when the earth was banged into existence within a year let alone a month?
Max