(December 21, 2019 at 3:19 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 21, 2019 at 2:28 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Kind of late replying...


Yes, more questions (and answers) are necessary.

I am not sure what would convince me a god or gods exists. It would depend on the description of the god under question.

Just to put this into context, it is often the case, that the type of evidence that ends up proving a proposition, is unknown before it is discovered. For example, before the microscope was invented, followed by the discovery of bacteria in 1676, how would we have known that there is evidence that bacteria were responsible for most disease?

But if a god does exist, and it is one of the gods described by theists as one who allegedly wants me to know it exists, then it should know what it would take to convince me. If said god continues to play the longest game of hide and seek in history with those of us that are not gullible, how is that my fault?

All I know, is if this god does want to be known, it seems like all its earthly representatives and apologists have done a horrible job demonstrating its existence.

Ancient texts, personal testimony, miracle claims, healings, etc, do not hold up to scrutiny. The philosophical arguments: Kalam, teleological & design, ontological, and presuppositional arguments are all fallacious. So, until such a time that theists are able to meet their burden of proof that a god exists, I will remain to be unconvinced.

Everything you said makes perfect sense to me other than your final few sentences.  It might be that I just don’t understand your logic.  I exist and I feel no burden of proof to prove it to you.  I am not here to prove to you that God exists because we all know, that would be an impossibility even if you had given the evidence required for your belief to be positive.  If you were to say to me in your next post reply “prove that you exist” I would not could not and would feel no burden to do so.

I wonder what the world would look like right now if all of the people that doubted an actually existing God would demand that he prove himself and he was the sort of God that allowed his creation to demand it and he was the type God that would give it to them.   I imagine if all was upended at the whim of doubters the world might be quite chaotic.

I accept your reasons for doubting that God exists because they are yours.  If my existence was based on constant proof I might be spending most my time proving to unreasonable demands of proof.  My proof of my existence is the fact that I do exist.  God’s proof of his existence is the same.  Whether you believe or doubt, is your reality obviously.
I have a willingness to believe and it’s not based in God’s constant proving himself to me.  The fact that he does not cower to my demands in prayer and proof acts is a fact of his being not in subjection to me, but the other way around.

As for miracles...Do you have kids?  Have you seen a live birth?  Procreation is a fact miracle and can be seen here and now.  Of course some say that’s not a miracle at all.  I say the world around me is a miracle, and to many others it's just a fact pattern based in some theory.  A theory that accounts for our planet being the exact distance from the sun to support life and many many other statistical phenomena as just that.

Max

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(December 21, 2019 at 2:54 pm)Alex K Wrote: Whoever told you that is lying in order to deceive you. Be wary. They are misrepresenting in oder to sow doubt and lead you into their trap.

What trap?  Sow doubt?
What is the actual age of the earth?  Can you tell me when the earth was banged into existence within a year let alone a month?
Max

10 years ago. I answered you twice. Acknowledge it.

(December 21, 2019 at 3:19 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 21, 2019 at 2:54 pm)Alex K Wrote: Whoever told you that is lying in order to deceive you. Be wary. They are misrepresenting in oder to sow doubt and lead you into their trap.

What trap? Sow doubt?
What is the actual age of the earth? Can you tell me when the earth was banged into existence within a year let alone a month?
Max

I barely know what month I myself was banged into existence, why should I know it about the earth. Why would you expect anyone to know it? In the case of the earth, the question doesn't even make sense because the formation of the planet in the protoplanetary disk was a slow and gradual process of accumulation of matter, with one particularly big hit among them (Theia). Your question is a bit like asking at what inch precisely do the Rocky mountains start.
Look here, an actual photo of such a protoplanetary disk underway in a different star system:


How you are being tricked: the propagandists in your faith deliberately push you to ask needlessly impossible questions (the dumbest of those is Ken Ham's shtick "were you there") hoping that an unavoidable negative answer will feed your confirmation bias enough to dissuade you from reality and let them insert their lies.

Quote:What is the actual age of the earth?

This way already answered

Quote:Can you tell me when the earth was banged into existence within a year let alone a month?

Max

The earth wasn't a direct result of the big bang and the big bang occurred around 13 billion years ago

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Quote:I wonder what the world would look like right now if all of the people that doubted an actually existing God would demand that he prove himself and he was the sort of God that allowed his creation to demand it and he was the type God that would give it to them. I imagine if all was upended at the whim of doubters the world might be quite chaotic.

It would be a simple matter because a god could always figure out how to do it without harming order.Not to mention if he was god he would already know wha would convince everyone.  

Quote:I accept your reasons for doubting that God exists because they are yours. If my existence was based on constant proof I might be spending most my time proving to unreasonable demands of proof. My proof of my existence is the fact that I do exist. God’s proof of his existence is the same. Whether you believe or doubt, is your reality obviously.

Nope you exist your god is a claim 

Quote:I have a willingness to believe and it’s not based in God’s constant proving himself to me. The fact that he does not cower to my demands in prayer and proof acts is a fact of his being not in subjection to me, but the other way around.

Once again that's not a good reason 

Quote:As for miracles...Do you have kids? Have you seen a live birth? Procreation is a fact miracle and can be seen here and now.

Nope ha's not a miracle 

Quote: Of course some say that’s not a miracle at all. 

Because it's not 

Quote:I say the world around me is a miracle, and to many others it's just a fact pattern based in some theory. A theory that accounts for our planet being the exact distance from the sun to support life and many many other statistical phenomena as just that.

So just a bunch of credulity

(December 20, 2019 at 4:38 pm)maxolla Wrote: I believe this is an accurate assessment but I would follow it up with possibly a more relevant deconversion in a teaching of a God of love who punishes those who reject him with an eternity of torturous fire.

I think these two teachings have created the vacuum necessary for the naturalist view among others.

The latter I have not had to contend with because it is clearly not taught in scripture.  The former I have had to grapple with on an ongoing basis.  Particularly hard to understand for me has been the story of Job.

Wait just a minute. How, exactly, is human sacrifice moral? Bible god demands it and is given it. It is stated right there in the magic book. Do you think human sacrifice is moral? Because the god of the magic book demands it? And actually receives it? Would you kill your kid just because "god" said so?

(December 21, 2019 at 4:27 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(December 20, 2019 at 4:38 pm)maxolla Wrote: I believe this is an accurate assessment but I would follow it up with possibly a more relevant deconversion in a teaching of a God of love who punishes those who reject him with an eternity of torturous fire.

I think these two teachings have created the vacuum necessary for the naturalist view among others.

The latter I have not had to contend with because it is clearly not taught in scripture.  The former I have had to grapple with on an ongoing basis.  Particularly hard to understand for me has been the story of Job.

Wait just a minute. How, exactly, is human sacrifice moral? Bible god demands it and is given it. It is stated right there in the magic book. Do you think human sacrifice is moral? Because the god of the magic book demands it? And actually receives it? Would you kill your kid just because "god" said so?

Are you debating his character now? What do you care with moral character of a God you do not believe in?

(December 21, 2019 at 4:34 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 21, 2019 at 4:27 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Wait just a minute. How, exactly, is human sacrifice moral? Bible god demands it and is given it. It is stated right there in the magic book. Do you think human sacrifice is moral? Because the god of the magic book demands it? And actually receives it? Would you kill your kid just because "god" said so?

Are you debating his character now?  What do you care with moral character of a God you do not believe in?

Simple because theists think he is real and worst still believe his actions to be laudable .

(December 21, 2019 at 3:59 pm)Alex K Wrote:

(December 21, 2019 at 3:19 pm)maxolla Wrote: What trap? Sow doubt?
What is the actual age of the earth? Can you tell me when the earth was banged into existence within a year let alone a month?
Max

I barely know what month I myself was banged into existence, why should I know it about the earth. Why would you expect anyone to know it? In the case of the earth, the question doesn't even make sense because the formation of the planet in the protoplanetary disk was a slow and gradual process of accumulation of matter, with one particularly big hit among them (Theia). Your question is a bit like asking at what inch precisely do the Rocky mountains start.
Look here, an actual photo of such a protoplanetary disk underway in a different star system:


How you are being tricked: the propagandists in your faith deliberately push you to ask needlessly impossible questions (the dumbest of those is Ken Ham's shtick "were you there") hoping that an unavoidable negative answer will feed your confirmation bias enough to dissuade you from reality and let them insert their lies.

Everyone suffers from confirmation bias other than those claiming it for those they disagree with.

I think I made this point earlier. As I’ve learned more about atheists it seems to me most (some) of them don’t just lack belief in God but have a hatred for the non-god they don’t believe in.
And, at the same time lacking any confirmation bias, of course.

Quote:Everyone suffers from confirmation bias other than those claiming it for those they disagree with.

While everyone suffers from it .Some people are able to look past it .

Quote:I think I made this point earlier. As I’ve learned more about atheists it seems to me most (some) of them don’t just lack belief in God but have a hatred for the non-god they don’t believe in.

Nope .I guess you have not learned much .

Quote:And, at the same time lacking any confirmation bias, of course

Nope just know what it is and how to see past it.

(December 21, 2019 at 3:48 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote:

(December 21, 2019 at 3:19 pm)maxolla Wrote: Everything you said makes perfect sense to me other than your final few sentences.  It might be that I just don’t understand your logic.  I exist and I feel no burden of proof to prove it to you.  I am not here to prove to you that God exists because we all know, that would be an impossibility even if you had given the evidence required for your belief to be positive.  If you were to say to me in your next post reply “prove that you exist” I would not could not and would feel no burden to do so.

I wonder what the world would look like right now if all of the people that doubted an actually existing God would demand that he prove himself and he was the sort of God that allowed his creation to demand it and he was the type God that would give it to them.   I imagine if all was upended at the whim of doubters the world might be quite chaotic.

I accept your reasons for doubting that God exists because they are yours.  If my existence was based on constant proof I might be spending most my time proving to unreasonable demands of proof.  My proof of my existence is the fact that I do exist.  God’s proof of his existence is the same.  Whether you believe or doubt, is your reality obviously.
I have a willingness to believe and it’s not based in God’s constant proving himself to me.  The fact that he does not cower to my demands in prayer and proof acts is a fact of his being not in subjection to me, but the other way around.

As for miracles...Do you have kids?  Have you seen a live birth?  Procreation is a fact miracle and can be seen here and now.  Of course some say that’s not a miracle at all.  I say the world around me is a miracle, and to many others it's just a fact pattern based in some theory.  A theory that accounts for our planet being the exact distance from the sun to support life and many many other statistical phenomena as just that.

Max

---

What trap?  Sow doubt?
What is the actual age of the earth?  Can you tell me when the earth was banged into existence within a year let alone a month?
Max

10 years ago. I answered you twice. Acknowledge it.

What do you want for acknowledgment, a kudos? You gave a dumb answer and asked no questions.

(December 21, 2019 at 4:40 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 21, 2019 at 3:59 pm)Alex K Wrote: I barely know what month I myself was banged into existence, why should I know it about the earth. Why would you expect anyone to know it? In the case of the earth, the question doesn't even make sense because the formation of the planet in the protoplanetary disk was a slow and gradual process of accumulation of matter, with one particularly big hit among them (Theia). Your question is a bit like asking at what inch precisely do the Rocky mountains start.
Look here, an actual photo of such a protoplanetary disk underway in a different star system:


How you are being tricked: the propagandists in your faith deliberately push you to ask needlessly impossible questions (the dumbest of those is Ken Ham's shtick "were you there") hoping that an unavoidable negative answer will feed your confirmation bias enough to dissuade you from reality and let them insert their lies.

Everyone suffers from confirmation bias other than those claiming it for those they disagree with.

I think I made this point earlier. As I’ve learned more about atheists it seems to me most (some) of them don’t just lack belief in God but have a hatred for the non-god they don’t believe in.
And, at the same time lacking any confirmation bias, of course.

Of course everyone suffers from confirmation bias. Your faith weaponizes it, while science tries to ameliorate it with its methodology. That's the difference.
As for Atheists actively hating non-god, that sounds bogus, how would that even work. I know many atheists, and they don't seem particularly angry.