If the universe is designed for human beings, why are we only able to survive in an infinitesimally tiny sliver of it?  Even on our own planet, we cannot live at extreme altitudes, extreme pressues, or under heavy radiation without very special, artificial help.  It seems that even the Earth wasn't designed for us.

One could make a better, more convincing argument that the universe was designed with tardigrades in mind, not humans.

Boru

Quote:Nobody can honestly wrap their heads around that all the complexity of human anatomy arised from nature playing with itself. Be it a million years long, a billion years, or an infinitely long natural process.

I can.  Boom.

Boru

(February 21, 2020 at 12:22 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Who's building a case for rape?  The guy's been dead for centuries.  Nobody is taking him to court.  This is just my ethical assessment of your cult founder's alleged character by reference to his alleged acts.  Here, he'd be in jail, or worse.

Thomas Jefferson would be on jail, too. He owned 600+ slaves. I am waiting to hear your ethical assessment for this. Bottom line : you can't accuse dead people of rape when you can't establish the case according to their standards back then, it's nothing more than an empty claim.

(February 21, 2020 at 12:22 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Anywho, so what if it took alot of planning to "get a person alive" -  that's not surprising to me since I have a handful of kids.  So what if your evil god made us?  I'm not exactly rushing out to the nearest mosque on account of how some dipshit god played around in the mud.  Atheists don't believe that fairy tale, but even if we did..it's unlikely that this would change our opinion of islam as a religion or your god as a character.

Your opinions of Islam are wrong, really wrong. If nothing could change them, you're simply being narrow-minded. And that's not out fault, or our religion's.

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(February 21, 2020 at 12:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: If the universe is designed for human beings, why are we only able to survive in an infinitesimally tiny sliver of it? 

Because we don't need more than the tiny silver. We are infinitesimal ourselves. What's so exciting about living on the Moon anyway?

Yes, that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves was also evil, and human trafficking is illegal. I don't worship him either. I've already explained to you that I'm not a moral relativist, as such....the ambiguities of your own moral relativism aren't a problem for me.

I do not believe that something is made right or wrong by when it happened, or the social mores that existed in the region at the time of it's occurrence.

As to my opinions of islam....and as I keep explaining to you..it's the assumption that magic books claims are true as a hypothetical that makes it impossible for me to join your club, not the fact that I don't believe you when you tell me fairy tales, or that I have the fairy tales you tell wrong. If your magic book..or you, have mis-communicated your own faith in such a way that a correction would change my opinion of it..then yes, it is your fault, your magic books fault, and can only be you and your magic books fault. If that's the case, may allah have mercy on your soul, and the souls of the people who crammed a bunch of bullshit into his mouth and called it the word of god. Huh? I have far less to worry about from some existent wrathful god than you or any other believer. Think it through.

Feel free to tell me that magic book got it wrong, and that you..right here and now, have it wrong. Otherwise, what?

(February 21, 2020 at 12:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Yes, that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves was also evil, and human trafficking is illegal.  I don't worship him either.  I've already explained to you that I'm not a moral relativist, as such....the ambiguities of your own moral relativism aren't a problem for me.  

And Muslims don't worship Muhammad either.

No, I need you to say : Thomas Jefferson would be in prison, just like you did with Muhammad. It's about time you acknoweldge your irrational repugnance toward his character. 

And how can I possibly be a moral relativist. My book already proved capable to be a moral reference, or an inspiration, to a dozen of civilizations, if some practices are not done anymore, they disappear and that's it, they don't become evil. You, on the other hand, are a moral relativist. It's extremely unlikely that you would condemn slavery with the same assured tone if you lived hundreds of years ago. Religions don't condemn practices that were deemed obsolete, they just let them go. But you guys really need to shout them from the rooftops.

(February 21, 2020 at 12:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If your magic book..or you, have mis-communicated your own faith in such a way that a correction would change my opinion of it..then yes, it is your fault, your magic books fault, and can only be you and your magic books fault. 

No, it's just you seeing things as faulty. You're not prepared to back up any of your opinions about the religion, be it an alleged rape, or slavery, or conducting wars unjustly. It's not surprising you would not change your opinion, you're clearly too lazy to do it.

(February 21, 2020 at 11:36 am)Klorophyll Wrote: Why aren't you dead then? There are physical constants tuned to the 120th zero out there, you know, aren't they enough to get you to think of a more serious reason of us being here.

And mutation/Natural selection require precise chemical and physical laws to work. Did these laws come by chance too, according to you, Mr. educated person?

The level of ignorance you display in those few words is astonishing. Those physical constants were here for bilions of years even before the planet was, let alone life and his adaptation to such a reality.

I urge you to know what you talk about, seek knowlege, not at a mosque, but a proper school where you have to read more than the one book.

And please, the fine tuning argument has been destryed many years ago. Even christians use it. If you could put up a better argument, one that I haven't seen milions of times spewed like bile by several religions, I would rep you up. Here is a hint: use your brain to think for yourself.

(February 21, 2020 at 12:36 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

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(February 21, 2020 at 12:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: If the universe is designed for human beings, why are we only able to survive in an infinitesimally tiny sliver of it? 

Because we don't need more than the tiny silver. We are infinitesimal ourselves. What's so exciting about living on the Moon anyway?

So, your point is that the universe was designed for human beings, but we are only able to survive in one unimaginably tiny corner of a tiny corner of it.  That's like saying Hampton Court was designed for Carassius  auratus because it contains a goldfish bowl.

Boru

(February 21, 2020 at 2:08 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Those physical constants were here for bilions of years even before the planet was,  let alone life and his adaptation to such a reality.

And how does "billions of years" invalidate the argument? Do you think of the physical constants as some socks in your attic?

It's actually the other way around, the more time there is for things to go wrong, the more unlikely it becomes for life to arise.

(February 21, 2020 at 2:08 pm)LastPoet Wrote: And please, the fine tuning argument has been destryed many years ago.

Well, "destroyed" is your side of the story.

(February 21, 2020 at 2:04 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(February 21, 2020 at 12:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Yes, that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves was also evil, and human trafficking is illegal.  I don't worship him either.  I've already explained to you that I'm not a moral relativist, as such....the ambiguities of your own moral relativism aren't a problem for me.  

And Muslims don't worship Muhammad either.

-if you say so, while people all over the world "imitate his sleep position"....lol - but this assertion hardly matters since we can sub in an evil god for an evil man with handy alacrity.  Frankl;y, I;m suprised that the latter isn;t just assumed, by you. If I couldn't worship an evil man, why would I worship the evil god of that evil man?

Quote:No, I need you to say : Thomas Jefferson would be in prison, just like you did with Muhammad. It's about time you acknoweldge your irrational repugnance toward his character. 

OFC he would be, but why do you imagine that would be a problem for me?  What do you think is irrational about being disgusted by a slaver?  It's a great question, since you belong to a slaving religion and worship the god of slaves and slaveholders.

Quote:And how can I possibly be a moral relativist.

Simple, you have told me twice now that I cannot judge your child raping warlord, that only peers of his own time could do that.  This makes ethical summary relative to time and social mores.  That's what moral relativism is, you are a moral relativist.

Quote:My book already proved capable to be a moral reference, or an inspiration, to a dozen of civilizations, if some practices are not done anymore, they disappear and that's it, they don't become evil. You, on the other hand, are a moral relativist. It's extremely unlikely that you would condemn slavery with the same assured tone if you lived hundreds of years ago. Religions don't condemn practices that were deemed obsolete, they just let them go. But you guys really need to shout them from the rooftops.

Magic book says alot of shit..but you, by reference to your own comments in this thread, are a moral relativist.  I am not.  Your moral relativism doesn't matter to me, a moral realist.

Quote:No, it's just you seeing things as faulty. You're not prepared to back up any of your opinions about the religion, be it an alleged rape, or slavery, or conducting wars unjustly. It's not surprising you would not change your opinion, you're clearly too lazy to do it.

Faulty?  Absolutely not.  Islam obviously works.  The trouble, for me, is that islam is evil, not that it's faulty. That's why I, as a person of good moral character and strong conscience, cannot join your club.

There is simply no way that you can even begin to have this discussion with me unless you manage to humble your clay made ass. Presumably, if your god exists, it put me in your path to teach you something. Pay attention. What I'm telling you can only make you a better ambassador of your own faith.

(February 21, 2020 at 2:21 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(February 21, 2020 at 2:08 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Those physical constants were here for bilions of years even before the planet was,  let alone life and his adaptation to such a reality.

And how does "billions of years" invalidate the argument? Do you think of the physical constants as some socks in your attic?

It's actually the other way around, the more time there is for things to go wrong, the more unlikely it becomes for life to arise.

(February 21, 2020 at 2:08 pm)LastPoet Wrote: And please, the fine tuning argument has been destryed many years ago.

Well, "destroyed" is your side of the story.

Life emerged after by bilions of years those constants of the universe were in place. Life was tuned by those constants, not the other way around. And tuned by death of those beings that had bad genetic traits whyle others that did, thrived and reproduced.

And yes, there is a vast amount of evidence for evolution. It is a fact an undeniable truth. Those like you that deny it, do it from ignorance and worse, for religious motivations as I stand witness. Do yourself a favour and read other books, even experiment what they teach. You can try peas, easy to study even a monk can do it. Reading your favourite religious books and drivel just do... nothing, except perhaps upping your DK effect and personal pride.

I have nothing else to say to you, you would require proper education and a few years studying many books, not just one, to know what you are talking about.