(March 15, 2020 at 7:40 am)Mr Greene Wrote: You have no idea what was driving events in NI, or why certain groups wanted to tie large numbers of British troops down in NI instead of West Germany for example. But please feel free to continue with the internal politics line.

I'd be genuinely pleased if you'd explain it to me. From the examples you give, it sounds like Cold War politics instead of internal politics. But not religion.

One question worth addressing: in the 19th and 20th centuries, Catholics and Protestants lived together in many many cities without sectarian violence. What particular aspect of history in Northern Ireland made this untrue for them?

The Troubles began with Rev. Ian Paisley's sectarianism.
As troops became involved in the '70s the KGB figured this would be an opportunity to tie down forces and serve as a cover for their own assassinations in the UK. Most famously was the attempted assassination of the British Government in Brighton '84 following MI6 rescue of Gordievsky. The OIRA took up a pro-communist stance which threatened to compromise Moscow's deniability so the PIRA became the principle vehicle. Republican pubs in Belfast tended to some of the best places to find a KGB officer when NATO intel wanted to feed misinformation to moscow.

(March 15, 2020 at 5:25 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(March 12, 2020 at 11:34 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: I think the demonstration can be made with the letter B.

OK, Hitchens claims that the troubles in Belfast were religious in origin. So do some of the posters here, though they are unwilling to write anything other than pronouncements and insults, and don't make an argument for their claim. I say they are wrong.

The combatants in Belfast took sides along Protestant/Catholic divides. But their quarrels had nothing to do with Protestantism or Catholicism. Their fight was about political issues. 

So you didn't watch the video I provided you, because you want to cling to your wrong headed fantasy.

(March 15, 2020 at 9:38 am)Mr Greene Wrote: The Troubles began with Rev. Ian Paisley's sectarianism.
As troops became involved in the '70s the KGB figured this would be an opportunity to tie down forces and serve as a cover for their own assassinations in the UK. Most famously was the attempted assassination of the British Government in Brighton '84 following MI6 rescue of Gordievsky. The OIRA took up a pro-communist stance which threatened to compromise Moscow's deniability so the PIRA became the principle vehicle. Republican pubs in Belfast tended to some of the best places to find a KGB officer when NATO intel wanted to feed misinformation to moscow.

That's a hell of a lot of politics!

(March 15, 2020 at 3:12 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(March 15, 2020 at 9:38 am)Mr Greene Wrote: The Troubles began with Rev. Ian Paisley's sectarianism.
As troops became involved in the '70s the KGB figured this would be an opportunity to tie down forces and serve as a cover for their own assassinations in the UK. Most famously was the attempted assassination of the British Government in Brighton '84 following MI6 rescue of Gordievsky. The OIRA took up a pro-communist stance which threatened to compromise Moscow's deniability so the PIRA became the principle vehicle. Republican pubs in Belfast tended to some of the best places to find a KGB officer when NATO intel wanted to feed misinformation to moscow.

That's a hell of a lot of politics!

Nope Religion

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(March 15, 2020 at 7:50 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(March 15, 2020 at 7:40 am)Mr Greene Wrote: You have no idea what was driving events in NI, or why certain groups wanted to tie large numbers of British troops down in NI instead of West Germany for example. But please feel free to continue with the internal politics line.

I'd be genuinely pleased if you'd explain it to me. From the examples you give, it sounds like Cold War politics instead of internal politics. But not religion.

One question worth addressing: in the 19th and 20th centuries, Catholics and Protestants lived together in many many cities without sectarian violence. What particular aspect of history in Northern Ireland made this untrue for them?

Fallacy fallacy

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(March 15, 2020 at 11:24 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(March 15, 2020 at 5:25 am)Belacqua Wrote: OK, Hitchens claims that the troubles in Belfast were religious in origin. So do some of the posters here, though they are unwilling to write anything other than pronouncements and insults, and don't make an argument for their claim. I say they are wrong.

The combatants in Belfast took sides along Protestant/Catholic divides. But their quarrels had nothing to do with Protestantism or Catholicism. Their fight was about political issues. 

So you didn't watch the video I provided you, because you want to cling to your wrong headed fantasy.

Because absolving religion is his goal

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(March 15, 2020 at 9:38 am)Mr Greene Wrote: The Troubles began with Rev. Ian Paisley's sectarianism.
As troops became involved in the '70s the KGB figured this would be an opportunity to tie down forces and serve as a cover for their own assassinations in the UK. Most famously was the attempted assassination of the British Government in Brighton '84 following MI6 rescue of Gordievsky. The OIRA took up a pro-communist stance which threatened to compromise Moscow's deniability so the PIRA became the principle vehicle. Republican pubs in Belfast tended to some of the best places to find a KGB officer when NATO intel wanted to feed misinformation to moscow.

He just dismissed it all as politics 

(March 15, 2020 at 3:12 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(March 15, 2020 at 9:38 am)Mr Greene Wrote: The Troubles began with Rev. Ian Paisley's sectarianism.
As troops became involved in the '70s the KGB figured this would be an opportunity to tie down forces and serve as a cover for their own assassinations in the UK. Most famously was the attempted assassination of the British Government in Brighton '84 following MI6 rescue of Gordievsky. The OIRA took up a pro-communist stance which threatened to compromise Moscow's deniability so the PIRA became the principle vehicle. Republican pubs in Belfast tended to some of the best places to find a KGB officer when NATO intel wanted to feed misinformation to moscow.

That's a hell of a lot of politics!

It's a hell of a lot of Paisley's religious nuttery.

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(March 15, 2020 at 3:12 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(March 15, 2020 at 9:38 am)Mr Greene Wrote: The Troubles began with Rev. Ian Paisley's sectarianism.
As troops became involved in the '70s the KGB figured this would be an opportunity to tie down forces and serve as a cover for their own assassinations in the UK. Most famously was the attempted assassination of the British Government in Brighton '84 following MI6 rescue of Gordievsky. The OIRA took up a pro-communist stance which threatened to compromise Moscow's deniability so the PIRA became the principle vehicle. Republican pubs in Belfast tended to some of the best places to find a KGB officer when NATO intel wanted to feed misinformation to moscow.

That's a hell of a lot of politics!

When you have lived through it, then you earn the right to have an opinion.

When you have seen your friends catholic child walking to her catholic school being stoned by Protestants, then you earn the right to have an opinion.

Until then you remain an idiot who thinks platonism is the end of all thought or whatever philosobabble you have glomed onto today.

(March 12, 2020 at 10:03 am)Klorophyll Wrote:

(March 12, 2020 at 9:26 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: So we should stone women on their wedding night if they're not virgins, kill firstborn sons, have slaves, etc. because the Bible tells us so?

It's still better than rationalizing, with a straight face, killing haemophiliac infants.

Who's advocating killing haeomophiliac children?

Look, the fact of the matter is that you're on here trying to convince us that a book cooked up by a bunch of geriatric goat fuckers to justify their paedophilia and love of murder is the one true way.

It's not going to work, mainly because we're, mostly, a community brought up to be sceptical in the best sense of the word, i.e. that we look at the available evidence and make our conclusions based on that evidence, while simultaneously keeping our options open in case new evidence arises.

(March 15, 2020 at 5:02 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: When you have seen your friends catholic child walking to her catholic school being stoned by Protestants, then you earn the right to have an opinion.

As always, your reply here is emotional -- full of ire and insult.

You neglect to address the topic at hand, which is why Catholics and Protestants were committing violence to each other. 

It had nothing at all to do with their differences over the ontology of the Trinity, and everything to do with politics.

Hello every one! (^_^)

Sorry I'm popping in late.

I am very far removed geographically from the issues in Northern Ireland, sad as they are.

My only post of interest is to ask Belaqua if he's aware of the innitial 'Kick off' shall we say of why there is even a 'Northern ireland?

Perhapse we should, as the King in Alice's Wonderland says, begin at the beginning...

Much cheers and best wishes to all. Stay well and safe. May your @rse be clean.

Not at work.

(March 15, 2020 at 8:34 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: My only post of interest is to ask Belaqua if he's aware of the innitial 'Kick off' shall we say of why there is even a 'Northern ireland?

Yes, this seems reasonable.

For example, Mr. Greene said a bit earlier that the Troubles started due to Ian Paisley's sectarianism. That may well be true for a particular set of violent events, but I suspect that Paisley would put the origin further back. 

There is a very sad history of England's rule of Ireland, that goes back through famine and violence for a very long time. English people were more likely to be Protestant, and Irish people to be Catholic. 

As an example from not so long ago (in historical time scales) we can look at the early 20th century war for Irish independence. See if you can spot any theological disputes in the Wikipedia page for this violence. (By the word "theological" I mean claims about the nature of God or the truth of his actions in the world. I do not mean people identifying themselves with one sect or another.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_War_of_Independence