(March 27, 2020 at 3:38 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(March 27, 2020 at 2:59 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: OP, can I come to your church and teach evolution?

I am not a part of any religious "church" or "mosque"; but if I managed to build my own then yes;you can come and teach about evolution.

About five minutes in one of us would shoot the other.

(March 26, 2020 at 4:43 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(March 26, 2020 at 8:55 am)Mr Greene Wrote:

I agree! When examining issues about governance in the Muslim world, we need evidence. Not just unsupported assertions. For example:

You asserted that Muslims are forbidden from using interest in banking. As counter-evidence against this claim, I can offer several facts. 

Here is the page from the national Bank of Bangladesh showing current interest rates:
https://www.bb.org.bd/econdata/intrate.php

Here is the page from the CEIC on long term interest rates in Bangladesh:
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/ba...erest-rate

Here is an article from the Daily Star newspaper in Bangladesh on how interest rates on savings deposits decreased, causing anger and alarm among depositors. If all the depositors thought that interest was forbidden by their religion, they would not have opposed a rate drop:
https://www.thedailystar.net/business/de...nt-1847881

So at least one of your assertions does not survive scrutiny. The government, banks, and investors in at least one Muslim-majority country have no problem with interest. For your assertion, that Islam forbids interest, to be persuasive I think you'll have to offer some pretty strong counter-evidence. 

You have also asserted that majority Muslim former colonies have failed economically due to Islamic rules about finance. Other than the law against interest, which has now been shown to be not in force, you haven't pointed to any Muslim rules that cause such failure. Meanwhile, it's obvious that many many non-Muslim-majority countries have economic difficulties due to interference from more powerful countries. To show that such interference is NOT a factor in poor Muslim countries will require strong counter-evidence. 

You assert without evidence that Muslims are considered high-risk for bank loans. I don't know how to discover the banks' lending policies, and I'm pretty sure that a bank in the US which discriminated on the basis of religion would not advertise that fact. As evidence, though, that Muslims participate normally in the banking systems I can point to the millions of successful Muslim businessmen in the US, in Britain, in Europe, in the more peaceful countries of the Middle East, etc. Are they able to start businesses with out bank loans? To show that banks are unwilling to take them as clients will require strong evidence from you. 

In addition, I can continue to point to Muslim-majority countries whose economies are in bad condition due to obvious interference from stronger countries. Iran is the obvious case in point, since the US continues to enforce broad sanctions against them, including on needed medical equipment in times of pandemic. You will need to show strong evidence to persuade us that US interference is not a strong factor in the weakness of the Iranian economy.

In short, the meme you post is very relevant, if you accept that you are Ken Ham in this thread, and I am the one demanding and offering evidence. I suspect you are actually better looking than Ken Ham, however, and if you do become interested in offering evidence in addition to your assertions, I promise to read it.

So banks in Islamic countries now are offering loans where the interest is visible which is a more honest position than the one offered by Sharia compliant banks;

Ijara, Ijara-wa-iqtina, Mudaraba, Murabaha and Musharaka

These are financial products where the interest charged is hidden from the customer, as such the system is intrinsically dishonest which is a dangerous procedure to adopt as policy.

Presumably the customers realise they are being charged interest, (they aren't stupid) though the merry-go-round forced by Sharia makes it harder to figure out what is being charged and the culture of dishonesty generated has a corrupting effect amongst those who are responsible for muslim peoples finances.

As for the original claim regarding imperialism; Are you saying that Ottoman imperialism oppressed the Arab people to the point that they rose up and fought for liberty against their oppressors even though the Ottoman forces were equipped with modern weaponry including aircraft, artillery and machine guns, and their repression of the Arabs financial capacity has a lasting effect on Arab economies today?

(March 27, 2020 at 3:57 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: So banks in Islamic countries now are offering loans where the interest is visible which is a more honest position than the one offered by Sharia compliant banks;

Ijara, Ijara-wa-iqtina, Mudaraba, Murabaha and Musharaka

These are financial products where the interest charged is hidden from the customer, as such the system is intrinsically dishonest which is a dangerous procedure to adopt as policy.

Presumably the customers realise they are being charged interest, (they aren't stupid) though the merry-go-round forced by Sharia makes it harder to figure out what is being charged and the culture of dishonesty generated has a corrupting effect amongst those who are responsible for muslim peoples finances.

That's right -- even when banks make a show of being Sharia-compliant, they may still be charging interest. And banks which claim to be Sharia-compliant in this matter are not the majority.

So it would be false to say that governments and banks in Muslim-majority countries don't charge or pay interest.

I appreciate your changing your position on this, based on evidence. 

Quote:As for the original claim regarding imperialism; Are you saying that Ottoman imperialism oppressed the Arab people to the point that they rose up and fought for liberty against their oppressors even though the Ottoman forces were equipped with modern weaponry including aircraft, artillery and machine guns, and their repression of the Arabs financial capacity has a lasting effect on Arab economies today?

I am saying that various kinds of imperialism, colonialism, and influence from rich countries have caused terrible damage in the economies and lives of people in poorer countries. I am saying that blaming their poverty primarily on their religions is far too simple.

(March 26, 2020 at 8:51 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

Quote: 

Today's dark world was built by the old fools who were blind, greedy, have a superiority complex and above all: selfish. They rarely thought about our generation to be honest.

To me, this gets us back to the point I wanted to make earlier. It's true that lots of people in every religion have gotten away from core principles concerning finance, the treatment of strangers, etc. 

Mr. Greene seemed to be saying earlier that this is undoubtedly a good thing. That Muslims' willingness to use interest makes modern finance possible. But these leaves unaddressed the question of whether modern finance is at all desirable. It seems pretty clear that capitalism is what's killing the world these days. And as Fredric Jameson says, it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. 

If we did embrace a system in which (as Jesus wanted) all property was held in common and shared out to those most in need, the world might be better. If religion could hold that nature is sacred, it would provide an alternative way to value things that isn't measured in exchange value or use value.  

There might be ways other than the sacred to accomplish this, but our whole tradition comes from religion, like it or not, and in searching for alternatives these are the tools that our history gives us.

In terms of "interest" in Islam, I thought that these verses from the Quran which condemns it severely and prohibits Muslims from dealing with it might be useful to you:

Quote:Sura 10, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 38 )   So give the relative his right, as well as the needy and the traveler. That is best for those who desire the countenance of Allah, and it is they who will be the successful.
( 39 )   And whatever you give for interest to increase within the wealth of people will not increase with Allah. But what you give in zakah, desiring the countenance of Allah - those are the multipliers.

and

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 275 )   Those who consume interest cannot stand except as one stands who is being beaten by Satan into insanity. That is because they say, "Trade is [just] like interest." But Allah has permitted trade and has forbidden interest. So whoever has received an admonition from his Lord and desists may have what is past, and his affair rests with Allah. But whoever returns to [dealing in interest or usury] - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein.
( 276 )   Allah destroys interest and gives increase for charities. And Allah does not like every sinning disbeliever.

and

Quote:Sura 3, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 130 )   O you who have believed, do not consume usury, doubled and multiplied, but fear Allah that you may be successful.

These verses are evident to that interest has no place in Islam. Actually; Muslim governments today claim that it is "a mandatory price in today's world"; and people who criticize it are usually doomed to prison.

Islam is anti capitalism and against this economic system. That can make you truly wonder whether the so called "Muslim governments" are truly Muslim. But looking at their history, you'll realize that they are mere imperialistic proxies of the great powers.

It must be difficult to need to erase islam as a great power with proxies of it's own, simultaneously clinging to the myth of the islamic golden age.

(March 27, 2020 at 5:05 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It must be difficult to need to erase islam as a great power with proxies of it's own, simultaneously clinging to the myth of the islamic golden age.

The economic system that is based on "huge interests" and money printed out of thin air will suffocate itself with the bubbles it makes until it comes falling down.

Then you will see the wisdom of God when he said: "leave interest".

I'm not in the habit of taking financial advice from casper the friendly ghost - and I didn't need to be advised on interest anyway.

The wisdom of god has this funny habit of being whatever the person telling us about god wants it to be. Hell, big mo was a conqueror all about that tax. His religion carves these issues out as divine truth. You probably aren't much of a conqueror, and I know you're not collecting any taxes. It's almost as if god is a puppet. Your puppet. He likes what you like, hates what you hate, has all of your own hilarious peculiarities. Go ahead, try it.

Aaaaaaanyway, there are all sorts of value bubbles. It doesn't surprise me when they crash, no more so than the collapse of the god-value bubble. Take the collapse of islamic civilization, for example. I suppose that this would have surprised potentates like big mo, but we have a fuller view of history. The empire fell not because it wasn't true to it's presumed founding principles..but because it was, and they were insufficient.

Yeah, WinterHold is full of crap all the time: first he said that Coronavirus was created by Trump as a diversion, then Allah's punishment for Chinese treatment of muslims, then Allah's punishment for western colonialism, and the new lunatic claims just keep on coming.

Well, he just knows that the djinn is punishing someone....after all, that's what Winter would do.

Disgusting person.

(March 27, 2020 at 5:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I'm not in the habit of taking financial advice from casper the friendly ghost - and I didn't need to be advised on interest anyway.

The wisdom of god has this funny habit of being whatever the person telling us about god wants it to be.  Hell, big mo was a conqueror all about that tax.  His religion carves these issues out as divine truth.  You probably aren't much of a conqueror, and I know you're not collecting any taxes.  It's almost as if god is a puppet.  Your puppet.  He likes what you like, hates what you hate, has all of your own hilarious peculiarities.  Go ahead, try it.

Aaaaaaanyway, there are all sorts of value bubbles.  It doesn't surprise me when they crash, no more so than the collapse of the god-value bubble.  Take the collapse of islamic civilization, for example.  I suppose that this would have surprised potentates like big mo, but we have a fuller view of history.  The empire fell not because it wasn't true to it's presumed founding principles..but because it was, and they were insufficient.

If you can't see the disasters imperial capitalism did to the world, then I can't help you.
Poor countries though know exactly how the banks sucked their blood through interest on loans; favoring the rich.