(May 10, 2020 at 12:53 am)Huggy Bear Wrote:

(May 9, 2020 at 11:19 pm)masoni Wrote: christians typically translate this commandment as thou shalt not murder, and then define murder as unjustified killing.this is how they justify war, death penalty, and eating meat. but they usually don't realize it also causes the commandment to become meaningless because everyone agrees unjustified killing is unjustified.  it's like saying bad things are bad, it's definitionally true.

*emphasis mine*
It's not a translation, it's what the bible literally says.

Matthew 19
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

- Matthew 19:18

So what exactly are you trying to say? That God is not a murderer but a killer?

God doesn't kill people.  People kill people.  There is no celestial enforcer, no purely kind person, no perfect form of government.  Whether the idea comes from ancient fiction, local myth, or celebrated thinker, it's still an idea who's best chance of working comes within a carefully worded hypothetical.  They all eventually land as bugs on a bumper.  

I know it's much to ask, but don't ride your pet ideology into the ground.  Pull the rip cord.  Moreover, don't deny an ideology that will buy you time.  It's not like you have to lock it in.  Firm belief is the horsecock aimed at your orifice.

SUNGULA Wrote:But overall all the biggest difference is Socialism tends toward maintaining capitalist structures while simply democratizing it .Socialist don't tend to believe in revolutionary change instead opting to integrate into the preexisting system

Lets compare the Socialist countries we know to your criteria

USSR -                                                                                                     Cuba -
Began with the bolshevik revolution                                                            Began with the bolshevik revolution
Did not integrate to preexisting structures                                                   Did not integrate to preexisting structures
State owned structures                                                                              State owned structures
A dictatorship                                                                                           A dictatorship

China -                                                                                                   Venezuela -
Began with a revolution                                                                            Began with a revolution
Did not integrate to preexisting structures                                                  Did not integrate to preexisting structures

State owned structures                                                                             State owned structures
Dictatorship                                                                                            Dictatorship

Your criteria
Capitalist structures... Incorrect
Democracy...             Incorrect
No revolution...          Incorrect
Preexisting system...  Incorrect


Name a socialist country that meets your nonsensical criteria.

Communism is a Marx concept of a utopia. It says that the public have equal shares in companies whose profits are equally divided

SUNGULA Wrote:No it isn't. Marx made it clear not everyone would the same amount nor could they make the same amount

This is basically what i was trying to say, each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs. Its Marx's utopia

Definition - Basically, communism proposes a society in which everyone shares the benefits of labor equally, and eliminates the class system through redistribution of on income.
Definition - A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access to the articles of consumption and is classless and stateless, implying the end of the .
Definition - a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs

SUNGULA Wrote:Communism argues race is a false hierarchy (though Communist countries sure as hell didn't practice this)

Contradictory

SUNGULA Wrote:It can't which is why Marx didn't believe it

Strawman. I didn't say Marx believed in communism

SUNGULA Wrote:were all business become worker communes independent of the government practicing workplace democracy

Basically what I said anyway after all the antagonizing rubbish

SUNGULA Wrote:This video is laughably simplistic

I said it was

SUNGULA Wrote:Fascism always has an underlining racialism

There was no racism in Italy, Spain or Portugal

SUNGULA Wrote:Fascist countries had private ownership

Public

(May 9, 2020 at 11:19 pm)masoni Wrote:

(May 9, 2020 at 5:56 pm)Huggy Bear Wrote: No, he says that you shall not commit murder. God has made it very clear that the penalty for sin is death, therefor transgressing a law punishable by death is not murder.

christians typically translate this commandment as thou shalt not murder, and then define murder as unjustified killing.this is how they justify war, death penalty, and eating meat. but they usually don't realize it also causes the commandment to become meaningless because everyone agrees unjustified killing is unjustified.  it's like saying bad things are bad, it's definitionally true.

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(May 9, 2020 at 6:32 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Nothing exists in Sura 8 that says so.
Neither such thing exists in Sura 12

But I think you are just copy-pasting from some propaganda site that doesn't even know what the Quran contains, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, I think I know where a similar verse is located:

Sura 47, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh


You are bringing me a war verse, and apply it to peace times?

https://quran.com/8

I apologize the verse "does exist" in sura 8.
But still it is a "war-only" verse; it is preceded by verse 5 and 6 which tell the story of how Mohammed's God promised the believers to be supported by angels in battle:


https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

Quote:Sura 8, The Quran:

( 5 )   [It is] just as when your Lord brought you out of your home [for the battle of Badr] in truth, while indeed, a party among the believers were unwilling,

( 6 )   Arguing with you concerning the truth after it had become clear, as if they were being driven toward death while they were looking on.

Indeed in battle, I will expect my commander to tell me "aim for the heads and cripple your foe".
In no way this is a license for killing people outside of warfare.

Center mass man, always center mass.

(May 10, 2020 at 2:29 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Center mass man, always center mass.

It's a different story when you use melee weapons.

Full on fantasy land now, huh?

(May 10, 2020 at 1:46 am)Agnostico Wrote: Lets compare the Socialist countries we know to your criteria

I think we have to deal with these leftist ideologies almost as we deal with Christianity: there is huge variety within them, and no one agrees on what the "real" version consists of.

Fighting among different branches of communists has been about as vicious as commies vs. others. I saw the room in Mexico where Trotsky was killed -- you can still see the icepick marks from where his former colleagues assassinated him.

So for example a lot of commies would say that no country has ever achieved communism. The Soviet Union maybe tried, but failed. The others ended up with various kinds of oligarchies or top-down rule. Certainly the workers' utopia that Marx wanted has never existed. It may be that the failure of all the attempts means that such a utopia is impossible, but that's not really something we can know for sure. (I like to joke that perfect communism is possible if you have a group of only 13 people, and one of them is Jesus.) 

Apparently Marx said, "I am not a Marxist," meaning that even in his lifetime what people were doing in his name didn't have his approval. 

I suspect that in ideologies as in religion, some people are not willing to accept that there are variations. The OP wants to claim that Christianity is only a certain way -- the way he wants to criticize. Maybe Sungula wants to make similar claims about communism -- he KNOWS what it is. But there will be lots of commies who call themselves commies who refuse to accept any checklist of things we write up for them.

(May 10, 2020 at 2:57 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Full on fantasy land now, huh?

No, I try to picture how a self defense class would look like.

I'm entirely certain that people who call themselves communists would not sign off on a checklist that you and agnostic write. That probably doesn't have anything to do with anything that you posted, but still, lol. It's actually pretty easy to come up with a checklist that all communists would agree to, in mere reality. As easy as it is for christians and atheists.

The common ownership of the means of production - communism.

A belief in christ - christianity.

No belief in gods - atheism.

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(May 10, 2020 at 3:16 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(May 10, 2020 at 2:57 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Full on fantasy land now, huh?

No, I try to picture how a self defense class would look like.

Apparently, you wielding a knife.... getting shot by a man with a rifle.

I just think it's weird, and weirder still that you string notions of melee combat and your religion together. Anywho, for that verse. Does it bother you that allah hasn't been providing the promised services? That your god is incapable of striking fear into enemy combatants? That the angels committed to the defense of faithful militias are shit against unmanned drones?