(May 10, 2020 at 3:20 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I'm entirely certain that people who call themselves communists would not sign off on a checklist that you and agnostic write.  That probably doesn't have anything to do with anything that you posted, but still, lol.  It's actually pretty easy to come up with a checklist that all communists would agree to, in mere reality.  As easy as it is for christians and atheists.  

The common ownership of the means of production - communism.

A belief in christ - christianity.

No belief in gods - atheism.

Nice one... 
Give us a simple definition of socialism, capitalism and fascism too if you want

I'm certain that you have access to google. I just wanted to point out that this entire line is an excuse for bitching about atheists. The terms mean specific and easily understood things. More of a preamble to a tired complaint than a description of reality.

(May 10, 2020 at 3:20 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

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(May 10, 2020 at 3:16 am)WinterHold Wrote: No, I try to picture how a self defense class would look like.

Apparently, you wielding a knife.... getting shot by a man with a rifle.

I just think it's weird, and weirder still that you string notions of melee combat and your religion together.

That verse was revealed to people who lived 1400 years ago. Back then, war was a melee business.
If we advance the age, we will replace the melee with guns. Not rocket science if you think about it.

Muslims are not Samurai who almost worship swords.

(May 10, 2020 at 3:10 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(May 10, 2020 at 1:46 am)Agnostico Wrote: Lets compare the Socialist countries we know to your criteria

I think we have to deal with these leftist ideologies almost as we deal with Christianity: there is huge variety within them, and no one agrees on what the "real" version consists of.

Fighting among different branches of communists has been about as vicious as commies vs. others. I saw the room in Mexico where Trotsky was killed -- you can still see the icepick marks from where his former colleagues assassinated him.

So for example a lot of commies would say that no country has ever achieved communism. The Soviet Union maybe tried, but failed. The others ended up with various kinds of oligarchies or top-down rule. Certainly the workers' utopia that Marx wanted has never existed. It may be that the failure of all the attempts means that such a utopia is impossible, but that's not really something we can know for sure. (I like to joke that perfect communism is possible if you have a group of only 13 people, and one of them is Jesus.) 

Apparently Marx said, "I am not a Marxist," meaning that even in his lifetime what people were doing in his name didn't have his approval. 

Totally agree. Its such a complex topic. Trosky was killed in Mexico... What so he defected from the Soviet Union cos he knew. 
But they still found him in Mexico... U can't mess with the Russians
But Marx certainly wrote about a communist utopia, im not sure if he believed it would work

Belacqua Wrote:The OP wants to claim that Christianity is only a certain way -- the way he wants to criticize. Maybe Sungula wants to make similar claims about communism -- he KNOWS what it is

.

SUNGs. Don't worry about what he posts to me cos its its always the same antagonizing stuff. 
He opposes me just to oppose and doesn't mind contradicting himself to do it either. 
He must be holding on to some kind of hate or resentment from a past disagreement

(May 10, 2020 at 3:28 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(May 10, 2020 at 3:20 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

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Apparently, you wielding a knife.... getting shot by a man with a rifle.

I just think it's weird, and weirder still that you string notions of melee combat and your religion together.

That verse was revealed to people who lived 1400 years ago. Back then, war was a melee business.
If we advance the age, we will replace the melee with guns. Not rocket science if you think about it.

Muslims are not Samurai who almost worship swords.

I don't think you've looked into this very much, but whatever.

How about those battalions of angels and gods great big psyops campaign?  Does it concern you that those assurances from a god don't seem to worth the paper magic book is printed on?

(May 10, 2020 at 1:16 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(May 10, 2020 at 12:53 am)Huggy Bear Wrote: *emphasis mine*
It's not a translation, it's what the bible literally says.

Matthew 19
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

- Matthew 19:18

So what exactly are you trying to say? That God is not a murderer but a killer?

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away...

(May 10, 2020 at 3:32 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(May 10, 2020 at 3:28 am)WinterHold Wrote: That verse was revealed to people who lived 1400 years ago. Back then, war was a melee business.
If we advance the age, we will replace the melee with guns. Not rocket science if you think about it.

Muslims are not Samurai who almost worship swords.

I don't think you've looked into this very much, but whatever.

How about those battalions of angels and gods great big psyops campaign?  Does it concern you that those assurances from a god don't seem to worth the paper magic book is printed on?

Mohammed's followers broke Rome and Persia in the same time. You realize that they brought both empires to their knees and changed the history of the globe in an instance, right?

Again, I don't think that you've looked into this at all...but that hardly answers the question of why allah isn't doing what he said he would.

I've never seen an aerial unit get backed down by angels, and I've never found that anti-insurgency infantry units are trembling in the face of divine magic. You? You said that this verse only applied in war...but it doesn't look like it applies in war either. Like your dreams of wielding a melee weapon in holy war...it's just not a thing that's happening.

You get that, right?

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-to leave you something else to mull over..in case your skull is completely impervious to reality - let's assume that the thing you imagine to be happening, that magic book describes, which is not now and never has happened..actually was?

God is protecting believers with angelic combatants and magically imparting fear in the other guys.  How is that supposed to play out in battles between christians and muslims..exactly? Take a look at the title of this thread.....

Oh dear this is going to need some serious corrections

Quote: USSR -                                                                                                     Cuba -
Began with the bolshevik revolution                                                            Began with the bolshevik revolution
Did not integrate to preexisting structures                                                   Did not integrate to preexisting structures
State owned structures                                                                              State owned structures
A dictatorship      

These countries are no Socialist .They aren't communist either .They were state capitalist

Quote:China -                                                                                                   Venezuela -
Began with a revolution                                                                            Began with a revolution
Did not integrate to preexisting structures                                                  Did not integrate to preexisting structures

State owned structures                                                                             State owned structures
Dictatorship                                                                                            Dictatorship

Neither of these counties are socialist .China is state capitalist now and even during Mao's time it wasn't communist it was state capitalist , And Venezuela isn't socialist ethier it's also state capitalist 

Quote:Your criteria
Capitalist structures... Incorrect
Democracy...             Incorrect
No revolution...          Incorrect
Preexisting system...  Incorrect

My criteria is fine your definition of what a socialist country is at fualt

Quote:Name a socialist country that meets your nonsensical criteria.

None because no socialist country exists at all. The ones called socialist countries aren't 

Quote:Communism is a Marx concept of a utopia. It says that the public have equal shares in companies whose profits are equally divided

No it's not . Communism is worker ownership of the means of production and it's not utopian as Marx made it clear struggle is needed

Quote:This is basically what i was trying to say, each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs. Its Marx's utopia

Definition - Basically, communism proposes a society in which everyone shares the benefits of labor equally, and eliminates the class system through redistribution of on income.

That's not utopian and nowhere does it say everyone gets the same so no your still wrong

Quote:Definition - A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access to the articles of consumption and is classless and stateless, implying the end of the exploitation of labour.

This is again wrong it's not common ownership it's WORKER ownership of the means of production .

Quote:Definition - a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs

Note nowhere does it say everyone gets the same and community does though again thy confuse community with workers ownership

God these are some awful definitions you copy and pasted from

Quote:Contradictory

Yes i was that was my point they didn't live up to the ideal 

Quote:Strawman. I didn't say Marx believed in communism

Nor did i say you said that . Of course Marx believed in his own system.

Quote:Basically what I said anyway after all the antagonizing rubbish

Actually no i pointed out your errors

Quote:There was no racism in Italy, Spain or Portugal

Actually their was .


Fascist  Italy had race laws and treated the non white  people in it's North African holdings  as second class citizens .It also maintained laws against Sicilians And Italy engaged in ethnic cleansing during the war . And Spain had Anti Semitic legislation made as early as 1938 ,

Fascist Spain treated  racial minorities in Spain as second class citizens and treated the non white people of it's moroccan holdings as second class citizens . Not to mention Franco fully accepted he idea of international Jewry the same as Hitler and despite what he would later claim he help the nazi's catch Jews and send them to occupied france .Franco also rolled back protections for Jews

Fascist   Portugal treated  racial minorities in  Portugal   as second class citizens and many of it's colonial laws were racist .

Quote:Public

Nope Private 
 

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(May 10, 2020 at 3:10 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(May 10, 2020 at 1:46 am)Agnostico Wrote: Lets compare the Socialist countries we know to your criteria

I think we have to deal with these leftist ideologies almost as we deal with Christianity: there is huge variety within them, and no one agrees on what the "real" version consists of.

Fighting among different branches of communists has been about as vicious as commies vs. others. I saw the room in Mexico where Trotsky was killed -- you can still see the icepick marks from where his former colleagues assassinated him.

So for example a lot of commies would say that no country has ever achieved communism. The Soviet Union maybe tried, but failed. The others ended up with various kinds of oligarchies or top-down rule. Certainly the workers' utopia that Marx wanted has never existed. It may be that the failure of all the attempts means that such a utopia is impossible, but that's not really something we can know for sure. (I like to joke that perfect communism is possible if you have a group of only 13 people, and one of them is Jesus.) 

Apparently Marx said, "I am not a Marxist," meaning that even in his lifetime what people were doing in his name didn't have his approval. 

I suspect that in ideologies as in religion, some people are not willing to accept that there are variations. The OP wants to claim that Christianity is only a certain way -- the way he wants to criticize. Maybe Sungula wants to make similar claims about communism -- he KNOWS what it is. But there will be lots of commies who call themselves commies who refuse to accept any checklist of things we write up for them.

1. I didn't say there wasn't variety

2.No country really even tried

3. Stalin had Trotsky killed not over ideology  but because Stalin feared Trotsky influence

4. Lastly i never said there was no disagreement

Quote:Accept i didn't claim that about communism so no

I've been trying to keep quiet about this, but it's activating the grammarnazitrons in my brain and ruining my sleep.

The word is 'except', not 'accept'.

I feel better now.

Boru