(May 14, 2020 at 11:25 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's true that secular laws have largely abandoned thought crime as an actionable item.  It shouldn't take much more than a person pointing to those regimes that leaned on it to explain why this was so.  The character of jesus, however, doesn't offer any novel opinions on the subject.  It was already widely believed that men could have wicked hearts™, and that those thought crimes caused by their wicked heart where the impetus for act in the exterior world.  

What is the case against thought crime outside of moral consideration?

that my point about sin being a virus and not a moral matter at all.
Thought crime as you put it extends into the two laws that Christ says replaces or full fills all of the old law of the prophets.

In that we are to love our God with all of our being and neighbors as ourselves.

it is easy to see how simply going through the motions of worship would reduce ones efforts to not giving God everything. Ie lets says you were out too late sat night and sunday morning worship came too quickly and you do want to worship God today you just want to sleep, but you get up and go to church anyway . you dont complain or do anything disruptive you just do not want to be there.

nothing morally wrong there. yet to go through the motions of worship fails 1/2 the rules God gave Christianity. this is indeed a sin separate from morality that needs the same atonement a moral sin might.

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(May 14, 2020 at 11:31 am)arewethereyet Wrote:

(May 14, 2020 at 11:25 am)Drich Wrote: it's not. which is why i said i dont fully agree with gae blongna.

and it is a little more than what you describes unless you thin God is a dummy/can be fooled or forced into granting you salvation per a loop hole you think you found.

you do ask God for forgiveness you acknowledge Jesus having died on the cross to cover you sin. and you got to alter your life like those two things mean something. don't have to burn down your house and start over, but you can pretend those words alone will save you. God will put on your heart the evils you must deal with first. work with the ones you can chip at the ones you cant right away.

If you need help you need proof seek him out on his terms and he will show up. but keep in mind to whom much is given much more is expected.

The more you do here the greater your life there.

if you try and get in the last minute Jesus describes them as having survived a great fire with singed cloths on their back and nothing more.. Who wants to enter heaven homeless?

So those deathbed conversions don't work?  You don't have much time to fix things then.  I thought that was part of the beauty of it all...you could be gasping your last, proclaim your faith, ask forgiveness, and voila - here's your golden ticket.

the death bed confession that do are witnessed by the thief on the cross. his confession describe a heart that would have worshiped Christ if he had only met him sooner. He was allowed in because God knew where his heart is. like wise trying to squeeze out as much life as you can and waiting till you are at deaths door to ask for forgiveness knowing your whole life what God expected... I'm not going to judge for Christ but lets say there is not biblical precedent for any of that. never once did that happen.

Why should we love god and our neighbors as we love ourselves? Is there some non-moral case for that?

(May 14, 2020 at 11:36 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Why should we love god and our neighbors as we love ourselves?  Is there some non-moral case for that?

why we should is as simple as Jesus being asked on 3 different occasions in the gospels "lord what must we do to be one of your followers." Christ replied with those two laws. So to be a follower of Christ we must love God with all of our being and 2 love our neighbor as ourselves. he said in doing these to thing all of the law not just the moral law but all of it is made complete.

Is there some non moral case for why we should do what jesus said?

(May 14, 2020 at 11:41 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Is there some non moral case for why we should do what jesus said?

the only reason to follow those laws are to follow Christ. to follow Christ is to be free from morality and the rest of the law. Meaning to follow Christ our righteousness before God is not longer determined by our ability to follow the moral civil or ceremonial laws, but rather our sins have been atoned for.

You're only offering that fealty grants immunity to the consequences of an action. Does god not contend that those actions are wrong, and that this wrongness provides desert for the consequences you wish to evade? That this is why you need a mulligan to begin with?

How about you? I'm asking you a fairly simple question and you're going to extreme lengths to talk about anything other than that. What are you atoned for, outside of a moral argument, what is atonement supposed to mean?

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Here - let's make this as simple as possible. Are you atoned for the good things you do, or the bad?

Shouldn't take ten pages, just one word.

(May 14, 2020 at 12:06 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You're only offering that fealty grants immunity to the consequences of an action.  Does god not contend that those actions are wrong, and that this wrongness provides desert for the consequences you wish to evade?  That this is why you need a mulligan to begin with?

How about you?  I'm asking you a fairly simple question and you're going to extreme lengths to talk about anything other than that.  What are you atoned for, outside of a moral argument, what is atonement supposed to mean?

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Here - let's make this as simple as possible.  Are you atoned for the good things you do, or the bad?

Shouldn't take ten pages, just one word.

I wish you would watch the video. everything is explain completely. this is why i like the video better. when ever i lay out several point ultimately what happens is you look for words you recognize and you assign your typical meaning to them. then you build arguments around those meaning and when i try and explain my pov is not typical frustration sets in. in a 10 min video i can reassign value to words and phrases quickly and set up new paradyms in seconds. we are 10 pages in and you still havent even caught up to the op.

so i will answer your questions anyway.

we atone for neither good or bad, as sin good or bad elements only repersent 1/3 of what sin is. 

Sin is not treated as a moral issue in the NT by Christ.

Sin for God is a virus.

Atonement is the inoculation. those who chose atonement have their souls literally saved, and when they come back will be themselves.

Which is why a ex murder like ted bundy will see heaven before a good or near perfect atheist.

Again if a ex-murder is free/inoculated from the zombie virus of sin, then he is safe to live and work with the living. (god and the 'saved.')

if that 'good/perfect atheist' was never inoculated and he died with sin, upon the resurrection we all go through he will come back not as himself but a slave to sin. a slave that evil has been feeding off of. as we are all born to this parasite or virus of evil and to pass on into eternity we must be inoculated or the contagion must be cleansed by fire.

Deeds/morality is no on the table anymore. it's about whether or not you carry the stain of sin on you. are you infected? if you are infected with the zombie virus of sin it does not matter what kind of person you are.

Your contention, then, is that if words do not mean what they mean..and if paul and john and jesus are all wrong when they use those words..that don't mean what they mean...then...what, exactly?

What do you need to atone or be atoned for? Good, or bad? As I've already explained, magic book addresses the morality of sin every single time it mentions sin. This is completely inarguable. You would have to write your own magic book to edit it out.

Every time. Sin is not mentioned at all outside the context of what is right, or not right. Sin, in no way shape or form..is ever anything except that which is wrong. All wrong is, in fact, sin. You do nothing but harm your faith when you argue this..and harm..according to magic book..is sin.

That god gives a murderer a mulligan does not mean that murder is not sin. If you want to contend that swearing fealty to your stupid fucking god gets you aqcuitted on charges you rightfully deserve, have at it. That is what christians believe - but that doesn't mean that what you've been aqcuitted for is not a moral issue, or that sin can be separated from morality. More accurately, you think that the christian "sin" concept is a factual view of morality. You're not arguing against morality as relativism or anything of the sort. You are simply arguing that your relative morality is accurate. You're only arguing that you will not hold yourself and will not be held by another to your own moral standard - standards alleged to be those of a god, your god.

No argument was required for that. We all know that you're an asshole already. No one needed to be informed that people like you think this way. Absolutely no one. We already knew that. You're literally everything wrong with christianity by the standard of john, paul, and christ.

(May 14, 2020 at 1:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Your contention, then, is that if words do not mean what they mean..and if paul and john and jesus are all wrong when they use those words..that don't mean what they mean...then...what, exactly?

i do not understand any of this. I am using the words of Jesus Paul and john (and the Hebrews writer) to describe sin this way.

Quote:What do you need to atone or be atoned for?  Good, or bad?

but the law extends beyond good and bad. the law was subdivide into the moral law, the laws of ceremony and service to God which include atonement. and the civil law/what it meant to be a ot jew.

remember the story of UZZah who steadied the ark and kept it from breaking on the rocks below? he broke no moral laws. what he did was morally good. he broke a ceremonial law. he still sinned even though he did what was morally right.

morality is only 1/3 of the total law.

So not take stuff like that and extend it to thought crimes.

that means 2/3 of the sin you commit have nothing to do with good or bad.

that makes sin something different than a measure of morality.

Quote: As I've already explained, magic book addresses the morality of sin every single time it mentions sin.  This is completely inarguable.  You would have to write your own magic book to edit it out.  

morality is part of laws and breaking the moral code is sin so everything moral will include sin. but again it now goes beyond just moral actions.

look at the parable of the 10 virgins. 1/2 were taken to the wedding and 1/2 were left behind. what was their moral crime/sin? They committed no moral sin, but rather they demonstrate or represent people who only 1/2 ass their obligations. those who's heart is not fully given to their God.

look at the rich young ruler. what was his moral sin? Jesus saw he had many things and of him made the requirement to sell everything and give to the poor.
morally the boy was perfect. he was not greedy by any stretch as he said he kept the laws which would include those that required him to give a percentage of what he made, and Jesus made no one else sell everything and give to the poor. what was his sin? again he had no moral failing.

My point is sin extends beyond good and bad. Christ identifies it as leven or yeast. they did not know what virus were but knew enough of yeast to know a little would infect a huge amount of dough and cause the whole loaf to rise. He compares sin to the smallest amount of yeast saying a little will consume/infect the whole body/loaf.

this is where I get my zombie virus analogy. the smallest bit or bit of infected blood in an open wound or eye means your deeds no longer become the measure of whether or not you qualify for heaven. as it does not matter what kind of person you are because all that matters now is that you are infected. once infected you must be cured before you can enter the land of the living. (that is the whole purpose of the Holy communion being taken with unleavened/yeast less bread)

Quote:Every time. Sin is not mentioned at all outside the context of what is right, or not right.  Sin, in no way shape or form..is ever anything except that which is wrong.  All wrong is, in fact, sin.  You do nothing but harm your faith when you argue this..and harm..according to magic book..is sin.

you are right. but you also must consider how the current culture uses the word wrong. Christ's picture on the surface to a simple person could only mean right or wrong. as it works that way, but there are many more explanations and analogies to also support the stain, taint or yeast/virus understanding of sin as well.
right and wrong have been so polluted by pop culture one can not discern it any more. because God in the people's eyes and hearts have been given the standard of the society to determine right and wrong. and as people will never see them selves as evil, they will always assume the opposite of whatever they are is wrong. In this case because God say homosexuality and abortion is evil, then God must be evil... So then how or why would a 'good person need to atone to an evil one?

unless there is more to sin. if we can get over the idea of good and evil and understand the other 2/3 of the law for a moment we will see good and evil are only 1/3 of the total meaning. that 2/3 of the law is about staying "clean" and keeping and maintaining a clean spirit/soul. (oT actual terms in dealing with sin and the purpose for the other 2/3 of the law) again when Jesus extended the law these terms of clean and how to keep a clean spirit also extended to thought.

The OT idea of being clean meant we must be without the taint stain or virus of sin. with this in mind it no longer matter how good you think you are. God lives in on the side of life, free from the virus which only causes death. (which is where i get the zombie aspect) upon resurrection the redeemed will rise to life and the unrepentant will rise to death. both side get resurrected. in christ we get to retain our selves in death we become literal zombies.

Quote:That god gives a murderer a mulligan does not mean that murder is not sin.

100% true. but my righteousness is no longer determined by my morality any more. it is based on Christ.

Quote:  If you want to contend that swearing fealty to your stupid fucking god gets you acquitted on charges you rightfully deserve, have at it.  That is what Christians believe - but that doesn't mean that what you've been acquitted for is not a moral issue, or that sin can be separated from morality.

never once said that I said we are not longer judge by the moral law. we are judged whether or not we have the vaccine of atonement or not.

Because without it the moral law still is the standard that shows those without atonement steeped in sin. the sin standard of morality still exists here. it's just used to judge those who have not been redeemed. the law does not go away. this is what is meant onc christ extended the law you must find a righteousness greater than that of the pharisees. They were the most moral and most aw abiding people on the planet. none could do no greater. yet thier standard of following the laws was no longer valid according to christ himself.

which is where atonement comes in. that is the standard greater than following the law as your means to righteousness.

So what keeps a follower of Christ from sinning if he has all these mulligans? the same as out first and greatest command. to love God with all of our being.
Can't prtend to love someon with every fiber and cheat on them or go behind their backs or do things that hurt them. it is with this love that binds us to the atonement we need to be found righteous. without this love God will say he never knew you.

Quote:  More accurately, you think that the christian "sin" concept is a factual view of morality.  You're not arguing against morality as relativism or anything of the sort.  You are simply arguing that your relative morality is accurate.  You're only arguing that you will not hold yourself and will not be held by another to your own moral standard - standards alleged to be those of a god, your god.

you say such silly things... i can see this would have to be what you think my position was, if what your assumption on my video is correct.. sorey but no.

Quote:No argument was required for that.  We all know that you're an asshole already.  No one needed to be informed that people like you think this way.  Absolutely no one.  We already knew that.  You're literally everything wrong with christianity by the standard of john, paul, and christ.

i guess i got sucked back to c-36

If your position on an issue has nothing to do with anything that you've said or argued about it, then maybe you should work on your delivery?