(May 21, 2020 at 4:21 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 4:18 am)WinterHold Wrote: lol. Cops are terrorist in the U.S, in other countries they sell dope and drugs.
Stop insulting the intelligence of the reader, while cops are disciplined a little in Europe -and especially UK-, they are terrorists elsewhere.

You may think so, but you're likely to think that any american is a terrorist, so I don't know how much weight you expect that accusation to have. 

It remains the case, even if we assume that they were..that they're not supposed to be.  That would be a systemic failure.  You insult your own intelligence.  Cops don't have guns so that they can be more effective terrorists.

I don't judge like that, to each their work, this is how I judge.
That's why I consider most of the wars and strikes your country commit to be a terrorist operation.

Quote:

Quote:Please read the bold.

I did, and I'm asking you whether you would sleep better at night knowing that someone is mutilating and torturing people in your name.  I think that we could also use some clarity as to whether incarceration is too cruel, or not cruel enough.

Yes. If I got robbed out of my life savings, or out of a rare gift my dead dad given to me when I was young, then I would so sleep better knowing that the criminal -under a just system- got his/her hand cut for it.

(May 21, 2020 at 4:32 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 4:21 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You may think so, but you're likely to think that any american is a terrorist, so I don't know how much weight you expect that accusation to have. 

It remains the case, even if we assume that they were..that they're not supposed to be.  That would be a systemic failure.  You insult your own intelligence.  Cops don't have guns so that they can be more effective terrorists.

I don't judge like that, to each their work, this is how I judge.
That's why I consider most of the wars and strikes your country commit to be a terrorist operation.

You can consider our wars and strikes however you like, that won't change the fact that police are not armed in the west for the reason you gave.  Even if you think that they should be armed for the rewson you gave - it is a plain and inarguable fact that they are not.

If we gave warrant to state terrorism by an explicit justification like that, would that make the western justice system seem more just and less barbaric, to you?

Quote:

Quote:I did, and I'm asking you whether you would sleep better at night knowing that someone is mutilating and torturing people in your name.  I think that we could also use some clarity as to whether incarceration is too cruel, or not cruel enough.

Yes. If I got robbed out of my life savings, or out of a rare gift my dead dad given to me when I was young, then I would so sleep better knowing that the criminal -under a just system- got his/her hand cut for it.

See, that wasn't so hard.  Why those infractions?  If the point is to spread fear, shouldn't we chop off hands if they steal your lollipop, too?  If cruelty is the feature, and not a bug, maybe we should chop off the hand of every person who goes to jail for any reason? We could keep piling on indignities, ofc. Chop their hands off and rape them and leave them in a cold box, etc etc etc. Cut out their tongues while we're at it, full titus.

Would this make the western justice system seem more just and less barbaric, to you?

(May 21, 2020 at 4:32 am)WinterHold Wrote: Yes. If I got robbed out of my life savings, or out of a rare gift my dead dad given to me when I was young, then I would so sleep better knowing that the criminal -under a just system- got his/her hand cut for it.

Fortunately most people arent like you, and thats why your claim that chopping hands off is good for the victim is nonsense. It only makes sense in a world that is populated with versions of you, a world i, and most others, dont want to be a part of.

Its also quite telling that you value money more than other humans´ health, while accusing "the west" left and right for being immoral, greedy and corrupt terrorists*. Once again i can only assume you are projecting. Probably you think "the west" is just like you.

*which makes you a hypocrite, but thats nothing really new to this forum.

Pretty much the deal.

Police and our justice system are a shared resource, though. No matter how much comfort Winter or people like Winter derive from the thought of some prisoner getting mutilated...the system doing the mutilating is mine as well. That is emphatically not what I want my tax dollars and civil servants time going toward. It doesn't prevent crime - it is a crime.

I'm wondering if we'll ever get him to come round to that. He seems to think incarceration is barbaric...but obviously has mixed emotions on whether naked barbarism is the point and end goal of a proper system of islamic justice.

---

-I'd add that money can't possibly be the issue. In a well functioning and just system - as Winter demands - doling out punishments like chopping off hands and executing people costs far....faaaaaaaar more than simple incarceration. Extra cruelty costs extra $.

Here's a really good q for you Winter. As we discuss this, have you researched this topic at all? So much as the simplest google search? What have you found, if you've looked. Does the reality of criminal justice match your beliefs about it in any way? Let's suppose that it doesn't, just for shits and giggles. Would that be a case of god getting justice wrong, or you?

I'll pitch another idea at you. Here in the west, we have this notion we call restorative justice. That's where...in the case of someone stealing something from you - you become a damaged party. They literally owe you. The amount owed can be voluntarily paid, or paid with the help of official garnishment - and even forced labor in the form of prison work programs. The relationship isn't entirely one sided, though. Understanding that fear is not in any way an effective deterrant to crime, restorative justice seeks to rehabilitate the individual criminal as well. Altering those patterns of decision and circumstance which lead them to crime in the first place.

Would this be more or less barbaric than chopping a hand off? Would this do more..or less..to make you as a victim of theft feel whole?

(May 21, 2020 at 4:37 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 4:32 am)WinterHold Wrote: I don't judge like that, to each their work, this is how I judge.
That's why I consider most of the wars and strikes your country commit to be a terrorist operation.

You can consider our wars and strikes however you like, that won't change the fact that police are not armed in the west for the reason you gave.  Even if you think that they should be armed for the rewson you gave - it is a plain and inarguable fact that they are not.

If we gave warrant to state terrorism by an explicit justification like that, would that make the western justice system seem more just and less barbaric, to you?

But police is armed worldwide -including the west- except for few countries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_fir...by_country

Quote:In some countries including Iceland, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway, the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland excepted), the police do not carry firearms unless the situation is expected to merit it. A survey conducted in Great Britain in 2004 found that 47% of citizens supported arming all police while 48% were opposed to the idea.[1]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#cite_note-BBC1-1][/url]
Why do you spread lies you and your bots?
Get out of here; liar. Debating you is a waste of time

(May 21, 2020 at 5:11 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 4:37 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You can consider our wars and strikes however you like, that won't change the fact that police are not armed in the west for the reason you gave.  Even if you think that they should be armed for the rewson you gave - it is a plain and inarguable fact that they are not.

If we gave warrant to state terrorism by an explicit justification like that, would that make the western justice system seem more just and less barbaric, to you?

But police is armed worldwide -including the west- except for few countries:

Not for the reason you gave.  Even if you think that's why they should be armed, it's not why they are armed, in reality.  

Quote:Why do you spread lies you and your bots?
Get out of here; liar. Debating you is a waste of time

You were plain and simply wrong about an inarguable fact of the western model of criminal justice.  Calling me a liar won't change that. Do you care to account for yourself or your statements in any way, answer any of the questions posed to you, or are you done?

At work.

(May 21, 2020 at 3:54 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 3:23 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: That is one primitive and ignorant veiw of the way 'Justice' should work.

Take pity on criminals until you get bitten by one.
The aftermath of criminal activity is devastating to a community; if these are times of "peace" in many countries, wait until it becomes the exact opposite. And don't forget how rifles and guns are still in use by cops to this day -ask them why-.

So, first off I understand that English possibly isn't your native dialogue and so kudos to you fellow sophont for being able to manage more than one language.

For your edification I have actually worked with my country's law enforcers and I know the history behind why they are armed.

Did you know that standard British police officers are generally unarmed? (Note my understanding of things in England may be horribly outdated. Am quite happy to be informed and updated)

Do you know why this is so?

As for 'Criminals', yes my time assisting my constabulary and watching 'Criminals' "In the wild" as it were has certainly changed my veiws in regards to such people....

But certainly not to the extent that we should be mutilating them

Please try to broaden your mental horizons.

Cheers.

But what about the elk?

For far too long, we have had to put up with these scofflaws.  Elk simply do not respect the rule of law and do not know how to behave in a civilized society.  They ignore road signs, curfews, and social distancing guidelines. Do you realize that there is not one, single recorded instance of an elk paying a parking citation, or showing up for a court appearance?

This is why I think all police should be armed with elk-seeking missiles.

Boru

(May 21, 2020 at 5:47 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.

(May 21, 2020 at 3:54 am)WinterHold Wrote: Take pity on criminals until you get bitten by one.
The aftermath of criminal activity is devastating to a community; if these are times of "peace" in many countries, wait until it becomes the exact opposite. And don't forget how rifles and guns are still in use by cops to this day -ask them why-.

So, first off I understand that English possibly isn't your native dialogue and so kudos to you fellow sophont for being able to manage more than one language.

For your edification I have actually worked with my country's law enforcers and I know the history behind why they are armed.

Did you know that standard British police officers are generally unarmed? (Note my understanding of things in England may be horribly outdated. Am quite happy to be informed and updated)

Do you know why this is so?

As for 'Criminals', yes my time assisting my constabulary and watching 'Criminals' "In the wild" as it were has certainly changed my veiws in regards to such people....

But certainly not to the extent that we should be mutilating them

Please try to broaden your mental horizons.

Cheers.

Thank you for your kind gesture.
Yes I read about that -UK normal cops being unarmed-. But still the SAS and counter terrorism are armed to the teeth.

It all falls to our different views about what works better for the victim of the criminal act; I already mentioned that in a just system this kind of penalty is a healer for the victim; and I gave an example with one losing their life savings to robbery and theft.

The society can crumble if theft is widespread, take Middle Eastern and African countries as an example, enduring such horrible crime can only be redeemed -in my view- via taking something dear from the criminal.

---

(May 21, 2020 at 5:52 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: But what about the elk?

For far too long, we have had to put up with these scofflaws.  Elk simply do not respect the rule of law and do not know how to behave in a civilized society.  They ignore road signs, curfews, and social distancing guidelines. Do you realize that there is not one, single recorded instance of an elk paying a parking citation, or showing up for a court appearance?

This is why I think all police should be armed with elk-seeking missiles.

Boru

In Saudi Arabia there are camels. They kill the drivers of speeding cars that crash with them on travel highways.  strong bones.

(May 21, 2020 at 12:42 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 5:47 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.


So, first off I understand that English possibly isn't your native dialogue and so kudos to you fellow sophont for being able to manage more than one language.

For your edification I have actually worked with my country's law enforcers and I know the history behind why they are armed.

Did you know that standard British police officers are generally unarmed? (Note my understanding of things in England may be horribly outdated. Am quite happy to be informed and updated)

Do you know why this is so?

As for 'Criminals', yes my time assisting my constabulary and watching 'Criminals' "In the wild" as it were has certainly changed my veiws in regards to such people....

But certainly not to the extent that we should be mutilating them

Please try to broaden your mental horizons.

Cheers.

Thank you for your kind gesture.
Yes I read about that -UK normal cops being unarmed-. But still the SAS and counter terrorism are armed to the teeth.

It all falls to our different views about what works better for the victim of the criminal act; I already mentioned that in a just system this kind of penalty is a healer for the victim; and I gave an example with one losing their life savings to robbery and theft.

The society can crumble if theft is widespread, take Middle Eastern and African countries as an example, enduring such horrible crime can only be redeemed -in my view- via taking something dear from the criminal.

---

(May 21, 2020 at 5:52 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: But what about the elk?

For far too long, we have had to put up with these scofflaws.  Elk simply do not respect the rule of law and do not know how to behave in a civilized society.  They ignore road signs, curfews, and social distancing guidelines. Do you realize that there is not one, single recorded instance of an elk paying a parking citation, or showing up for a court appearance?

This is why I think all police should be armed with elk-seeking missiles.

Boru

In Saudi Arabia there are camels. They kill the drivers of speeding cars that crash with them on travel highways.  strong bones.

But elk are real, not mythological like camels.

Boru