(May 21, 2020 at 3:25 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 3:17 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: If I understand what you're getting at (and there's no guarantee that I do), no one here is saying that thievery shouldn't be punished. 

But do you really believe that kid who swipes a magazine from a news kiosk deserves the same level of punishment as does the perpetrator of a Ponzi scheme that bilks millions of people out of billions of dollars?

Boru

In this comment in page 2 I did mention that kids should be excepted from the rule because they didn't satisfy the mental capability to grasp the consequence of their action:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61009-p...pid1976065

Quote:WinterHold said:

To approve a punishment, the condemned needs to satisfy the age and the mental capability to realize their crime.

A child is not mentally capable of realizing the consequence of their actions.

‘Kid’ is a relative term. You know full well what I meant: Does the theft of a $10 magazine merit the same punishment as the theft of $100 billion dollars, a theft that destroys the lives and security of hundreds of thousands of people?

Let’s put the hand-chopping aside for the moment: should those two crimes be punished at the same level of ANY kind of punishment?

Boru

(May 21, 2020 at 3:12 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 1:17 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Ok, now you’re just being silly. Silly, silly, silly.

Boru

I didn't hear about grudge and feelings to take what the robber took. It is only long years in jail when bankers are involved !

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(May 21, 2020 at 1:19 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If punishment can heal victims, then why should we add cruelty?

Because for most people, cruelty is the only way to pay them back a healer for the trauma the crime caused.

Have you run that one past Most People™?  Have you ever considered the possibility that most people emphatically don't want anyone tortured or mutilated on their account?  That it's just you?  

That you may be sick?

Anyway, punishment, then, doesn't heal victims. You are asserting that the only way a victim can be made to feel whole is through cruelty. Did you make this trivially silly mistake, or is god legitimately ignorant on this count?

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-or, if you prefer...assuming that people simply are as cruel and bloodthirsty as you are - is satisfying the cruel bloodlust of fallen human beings the aim of islamic justice? Do you really want to disagree over whether mutilating prisoners is disgusting and morally abhorrent?

Quote:Spreading fear in response to criminal behavior is the best method to fight crime. That's exactly why the police is armed. I would sleep better knowing that thieves are punished under a just system.

Police are armed fo thee protection and no it's not the best response by any metric . You feel better because your a cruel person 

Quote:You can't stop crime anyway; and no matter what you do you'll have criminals who never fear punishments, but who ever said that punishment is to end crime? it is for the victim of the crime to sleep better at night

They don't they don't dfea punishment this is a well studied fact .Nor do victims feel better i already linked evidence showing this 

https://undark.org/2016/05/16/deterrence...uce-crime/

Quote:Again; talk about severed hands and I'll speak about years wasted from the convict's life in the barbaric concrete-box sentences.

Again he speak as if there is no long term consequences to being mutilated and no prison no were near as barbaric as body mutilation and by he way prison aren't JUST a concrete box

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Quote:Because for most people, cruelty is the only way to pay them back a healer for the trauma the crime caused.

Accept it's a well studied fact that it doesn't

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Quote:Yes. If I got robbed out of my life savings, or out of a rare gift my dead dad given to me when I was young, then I would so sleep better knowing that the criminal -under a just system- got his/her hand cut for it.

That is because you are a monster

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Quote:Take pity on criminals until you get bitten by one.

I have been i have also worked helping criminals reform . There human being's like everyone else 

Quote:The aftermath of criminal activity is devastating to a community; if these are times of "peace" in many countries, wait until it becomes the exact opposite.

Gibberish 

Quote:And don't forget how rifles and guns are still in use by cops to this day -ask them why-.

Protection

(May 21, 2020 at 12:42 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 5:47 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.


So, first off I understand that English possibly isn't your native dialogue and so kudos to you fellow sophont for being able to manage more than one language.

For your edification I have actually worked with my country's law enforcers and I know the history behind why they are armed.

Did you know that standard British police officers are generally unarmed? (Note my understanding of things in England may be horribly outdated. Am quite happy to be informed and updated)

Do you know why this is so?

As for 'Criminals', yes my time assisting my constabulary and watching 'Criminals' "In the wild" as it were has certainly changed my veiws in regards to such people....

But certainly not to the extent that we should be mutilating them

Please try to broaden your mental horizons.

Cheers.

Thank you for your kind gesture.
Yes I read about that -UK normal cops being unarmed-. But still the SAS and counter terrorism are armed to the teeth.

It all falls to our different views about what works better for the victim of the criminal act; I already mentioned that in a just system this kind of penalty is a healer for the victim; and I gave an example with one losing their life savings to robbery and theft.

The society can crumble if theft is widespread, take Middle Eastern and African countries as an example, enduring such horrible crime can only be redeemed -in my view- via taking something dear from the criminal.

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 Uhhh.. what?

 Perhaps you should 'Back up' a step. You are aware that the British SAS are ARMY special froces, right?

As in... Military personel trained to a very high skill level that then specialize in certain feilds of which "Counter Terrorism" is but onew facet?

The British government. Instead of ARMING their police to deal with dangerous threats. Keep their police 'relativly' unarmed ( I think there are special 'FLying Squads' but I don't want to digress) and, instead, spend the time, effort and money to specially pick and train professoinals of their armed forces to help bolster their policing force.

Now.. if you then ALSO want to besmirch an armed force who can trace its history quite a distance into past history? That's fine. I'll let possible forum members set your misunderstanding about such straight.

So... It would seem that you DON'T know why British police are unarmed while American police generally are?

As for your remabling in relation  to 'Healing' and such? I am going to be generous and think that your handling of the English language is, sadly, not up to the task of translating yout thoughts.

Interesting.

Not at work.

Quote:It all falls to our different views about what works better for the victim of the criminal act; 

Which yours doesn't 

Quote:I already mentioned that in a just system this kind of penalty is a healer for the victim; and I gave an example with one losing their life savings to robbery and theft.

The evidence suggests otherwise

https://www.sanluisobispo.com/living/fam...10544.html

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-and-r...s-families 

Quote:The society can crumble if theft is widespread, take Middle Eastern and African countries as an example, enduring such horrible crime can only be redeemed -in my view- via taking something dear from the criminal.

Then you are a terrible person

This is a prison cell in sweden 


This is a prison cell in the netherlands 


Spain 


Japan



California

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Here's the filthy mutilation machine they use to to permanently maim someone for a minor crime

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Winter blathers about prison trauma but cutting off body parts can be just as traumatic as rape 

https://www.thescienceofpsychotherapy.co...ss-trauma/

I bet if you ask prisoners in Norway they would rather choose prison than having their hand cut off like in Islamic countries

(May 21, 2020 at 3:29 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 3:25 pm)WinterHold Wrote: In this comment in page 2 I did mention that kids should be excepted from the rule because they didn't satisfy the mental capability to grasp the consequence of their action:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61009-p...pid1976065

‘Kid’ is a relative term. You know full well what I meant: Does the theft of a $10 magazine merit the same punishment as the theft of $100 billion dollars, a theft that destroys the lives and security of hundreds of thousands of people?

Let’s put the hand-chopping aside for the moment: should those two crimes be punished at the same level of ANY kind of punishment?

Boru

Personally, I would answer with "no".
But you neglect the role of the just system I mentioned before, there must be a vote between many people on the sentence as the Quran says:

Quote:Sura 42, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 38 )   And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend.

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(May 21, 2020 at 4:24 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote:

(May 21, 2020 at 12:42 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Thank you for your kind gesture.
Yes I read about that -UK normal cops being unarmed-. But still the SAS and counter terrorism are armed to the teeth.

It all falls to our different views about what works better for the victim of the criminal act; I already mentioned that in a just system this kind of penalty is a healer for the victim; and I gave an example with one losing their life savings to robbery and theft.

The society can crumble if theft is widespread, take Middle Eastern and African countries as an example, enduring such horrible crime can only be redeemed -in my view- via taking something dear from the criminal.

---

 Uhhh.. what?

 Perhaps you should 'Back up' a step. You are aware that the British SAS are ARMY special froces, right?

As in... Military personel trained to a very high skill level that then specialize in certain feilds of which "Counter Terrorism" is but onew facet?

The British government. Instead of ARMING their police to deal with dangerous threats. Keep their police 'relativly' unarmed ( I think there are special 'FLying Squads' but I don't want to digress) and, instead, spend the time, effort and money to specially pick and train professoinals of their armed forces to help bolster their policing force.

Now.. if you then ALSO want to besmirch an armed force who can trace its history quite a distance into past history? That's fine. I'll let possible forum members set your misunderstanding about such straight.

So... It would seem that you DON'T know why British police are unarmed while American police generally are?

As for your remabling in relation  to 'Healing' and such? I am going to be generous and think that your handling of the English language is, sadly, not up to the task of translating yout thoughts.

Interesting.

Not at work.

Sorry, I meant "SCO19 Specialist Firearms Command"; despite their nerdy name they are armed to the teeth, so not SAS; sorry.

I understand English quite well, been using it since I was a child, so get over your imperialist ego will you? It's a second language for me so.....

I translate my thoughts quite well too, I am a programmer so we program in English if you don't know. As for the matter at hand, police in the UK is still armed but the arming is for special ranks like the SSFC, so the matter didn't change a lot: they are still armed because some criminals need to be terrorized.

WinterHold Wrote:In this comment in page 2 I did mention that kids should be excepted from the rule because they didn't satisfy the mental capability to grasp the consequence of their action:

Yeah but they are always old enough to be treated like this

Quote:I understand English quite well, been using it since I was a child, so get over your imperialist ego will you? It's a second language for me so.....

You make my english look good and point that out isn't imperialism 

Quote:I translate my thoughts quite well too,

No you don't 60% of the time i have no freaking clue what your saying 

Quote: I am a programmer so we program in English if you don't know. 

Then they need some serious retraining 

Quote:As for the matter at hand, police in the UK is still armed but the arming is for special ranks like the SSFC, so the matter didn't change a lot: 

Actually it does a lot 

Quote:they are still armed because some criminals need to be terrorized.

The point of guns isn't terrorizing criminals you fool

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Quote:Personally, I would answer with "no".

But you neglect the role of the just system I mentioned before, there must be a vote between many people on the sentence as the Quran says:

Any sentence of "chop that guys hand off " isn't just

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(May 22, 2020 at 2:20 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

WinterHold Wrote:In this comment in page 2 I did mention that kids should be excepted from the rule because they didn't satisfy the mental capability to grasp the consequence of their action:

Yeah but they are always old enough to be treated like this

Clearly the Islamic World didn't get that Memo 

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/fi...udi-arabia

https://crean-network.org/application/fi...ic_law.pdf

https://www.amnestyusa.org/reports/iran-...-children/