(October 25, 2011 at 4:19 pm)ElDinero Wrote:

(October 25, 2011 at 3:32 pm)salty Wrote: Concerning the OP: If there are choices, there is freewill. El Dinero brought up an example with sandwhiches, let's try that again.

A man lays out four sandwhiches, beef, chicken, turkey and ham. He tells you, "choose turkey." Do you still have freewill? You do, because the options are still available the sandwhiches are sitting right there in front of you. You don't have to listen to that man, he's simply trying to control you, based on what you know of him you will decide if you'll obey. You don't have to choose any of the sandwhiches, maybe you're not hungry. You will use your own judgement to choose what you want, that is the basis of freewill.

Ok, so I'm allowed to get drunk and have sex with everyone I want in heaven then, right? Since I don't have to listen to God trying to control me, as you said. But you already said I wouldn't be able to. Help me out.

Using the sandwhich example, you'll notice that the grounds for your freewill have already been established. By making that example you limited my options to sandwhices, I couldn't choose sex, I couldn't choose a boat ride or a pinball machine with the sandwhich example that you first created because it was not part of the framework for the analogy.

Heaven will have its own framework and have it's own established methods, like an RGP. If you call up a game designer and complain that the RPG isn't giving you freewill they'll tell you to take it back because when you purchased the game you agreed to its terms, if you don't like the terms then be done with it. Now think over an RPG, aren't you given thousands of options based on the games framework? Aren't you presented with hundreds of hours of game time and missions that are secret and known based on your ability to invest? Heaven will be like this, a place that presents thousands of options but by being admitted you have already agreed to the established framework and God tells us that drunkeness will not be in the framework.

You could say "nah, I'll have a bagel."

(October 25, 2011 at 7:43 pm)Justtristo Wrote:

(October 25, 2011 at 3:32 pm)salty Wrote: Concerning the comments: Rev, I do appreciate you saying that I'm nice, thank you. You really cracked me up in the Amish thread...that was my first interaction with you and I wanted to keep our future interactions lively and fun like that, but around here people don't see Christians as humans, we're just animals basically and if we're not nice, we're banned, but if any of you want to abuse us, it's no problem.

I happen to treat Christians as fellow human beings, that is more than I can say for some Christians I know in real life. Their views of atheists I have heard personally are sickening.

I know that you treat Christians well, you and several others make it their business to be fair and I appreciate that. I'm simply shocked by how many angry responses I receive instead of objective arguments, they can't seem to separate me personally from the ideas and thoughts I have and many don't take the time to understand if I'm trying to be insulting or if I'm unaware of how I come across...Epi does a great job of asking about things to be clear and I really respect that. I also enjoy the way that you phrase questions Justtristo and thoughts...I guess I need some tips. It's clear to me now that I'm not coming across well with some. As you know I won't change my opinion to fit in, but I will try to change my approach so that I'm not so insulting as many have put it. I fear that people are simply insulted by their own prejudice of me based on my beliefs, which means no matter how I say anything, it's insulting.

Concerning Christian opinions of atheists: Sickening is a good word, also uninformed, insensitive and naive can be used. Many atheists have felt so much heat from not sharing in the Christian belief that when a Christian "pitys" them and sits them down to "share the Gospel" it's disgusting, irritating and insensitive. I know that now, because I've been here and I remember how "sad" I was for everyone when I first got here and how I wanted peace between us, but in many ways I was only making it worse by assuming the people here have never heard the Gospel the way I've said it or they've never heard my answers. I decided to stay anyway because I knew that I could learn something, at least compassion and grace maybe.

After being here for a while I definitely have a new view of atheists. At first it was miles high with fun and kindness and friendship because everyone was generally nice, but the moment I gave an opposing view (See the homosexuality thread), a view that Christians have held for centuries, everything changed, everything, people were telling me not to judge others and in the same moment deciding that I was a disgusting person unworhty to be heard. They couldn't separate my thoughts on morality from my hobbies. I was either a cool person that moves with the flow or I'm a wicked Christian here to condemn everyone and neither of those things are true.

Really, it's only the atheists that I know in person and a few people online that remind me people are different in person and that some people are simply acting on limited information. Otherwise I can't help but to have a terrible impression of atheists from the overwhelming negativity that I receive, I think the word sickening can be used in that sense.

What are your thoughts Justtristo?

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(October 25, 2011 at 10:06 pm)Ryft Wrote:

(December 3, 2010 at 9:05 am)Abraham3 Wrote: If we do not have free will [in heaven], then have we not lost something of immense value?

That follows only if we had free will to begin with. The question put forward by the original poster—whether or not there is free will in heaven, and the significant experience of loss if there is not—is rendered meaningless if man has never had free will. If the original poster was still active, then I would challenge the assumption his question takes for granted.

(October 11, 2011 at 9:17 am)Zen Badger Wrote: A man walks up to you and tells you that you have two choices: either (1) you hand over your wallet or (2) get your brains blown out. Where is the free will in those choices?

How does giving you a choice between A and B deny you free will? Is it because there is no C to choose from? I fail to see how giving you three things to choose from allows you to exercise free will but giving you two things to choose from robs you of free will. You need to explain how that follows.

(October 24, 2011 at 3:07 pm)salty Wrote:

(October 24, 2011 at 10:28 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: Salty - who defines what's unhealthy?

1. family ...
2. your body ...
3. society ...
4. science ...

Now that is interesting. God did not make it on Salty's list.

I thought God was a given, but I should have put it down, sorry!

(October 26, 2011 at 8:26 am)salty Wrote: I'm simply shocked by how many angry responses I receive instead of objective arguments, they can't seem to separate me personally from the ideas and thoughts I have and many don't take the time to understand if I'm trying to be insulting or if I'm unaware of how I come across...

It is nothing to be shocked at... You support a system that has been the cause of some of the most vile things in human history... It annoys me when people don't understand the anger that a lot of atheists feel.

Actually, most have picked your arguments apart. 90% of the time I see someone tearing down your opinions and points, not you as a person.

(October 26, 2011 at 8:31 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: Actually, most have picked your arguments apart. 90% of the time I see someone tearing down your opinions and points, not you as a person.

Yeah, you are right. We don't really know her as a person that well, so we couldn't even if we tried.

What is sickening salty is the christian holier than thou attitude and the blindness to the atrocities that have been committed in the name of the abrahamic god and jesus in particular.

From an atheistic stand point xtians are nothing more than delusional children with their belief in a fantasy Santa Claus and a "reward" for being good, you seem to have a conflict in your views to your religion.

salty Wrote:(See the homosexuality thread), a view that Christians have held for centuries, everything changed, everything, people were telling me not to judge others and in the same moment deciding that I was a disgusting person unworhty to be heard. They couldn't separate my thoughts on morality from my hobbies. I was either a cool person that moves with the flow or I'm a wicked Christian here to condemn everyone and neither of those things are true.

For us...integrity IS EVERYTHING. none of this... Oh but my "Hobbies" and my belief are separate. WE LIVE our integrity EVERY MINUTE of EVERY day you seem to flop around like a child. For this you are marked down in the "worthy" scale and your god would be worse in HIS judgement of you

I can't help but notice that it is the "Christians" on this forum who want the 'Get out of Jail free card' and who will prevaricate (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prevaricating) and pervert their arguments and who come across as the most biased, pervertedly optimistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism) and sickening of humans.

Your deity will not feed the hungry in Somalia nor will it stop the earth quakes around the globe nor does it seem to care about human suffering.

You are a fool.

(October 26, 2011 at 7:55 am)salty Wrote: Heaven will have its own framework and have it's own established methods, like an RGP. If you call up a game designer and complain that the RPG isn't giving you freewill they'll tell you to take it back because when you purchased the game you agreed to its terms, if you don't like the terms then be done with it. Now think over an RPG, aren't you given thousands of options based on the games framework? Aren't you presented with hundreds of hours of game time and missions that are secret and known based on your ability to invest? Heaven will be like this, a place that presents thousands of options but by being admitted you have already agreed to the established framework and God tells us that drunkeness will not be in the framework.

And you know this for a fact because......

Then it isn't free will. Come into this place and abide by my rules is not free will. For goodness' sake, how can you not understand this? Free will is having the choice to do ANYTHING. Even if there are three million choices, if you're not allowed one of them, THAT IS NOT FREE WILL. Stop arguing this idiotic point.

(October 26, 2011 at 8:55 am)ElDinero Wrote: Then it isn't free will. Come into this place and abide by my rules is not free will. For goodness' sake, how can you not understand this? Free will is having the choice to do ANYTHING. Even if there are three million choices, if you're not allowed one of them, THAT IS NOT FREE WILL. Stop arguing this idiotic point.

Agreed....

It is childish in the extreme..how old are you salty? ... 8?