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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
July 3, 2020 at 2:11 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2020 at 2:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I'm still waiting for him to realize that he's been trying to persuasively argue that if science is a wrong about a thing, then allah is a dummy.
Especially seeing as how he's a person who absolutely doesn't think that science has ever been wrong about a thing.......
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
July 4, 2020 at 2:58 am
Still waiting for that bit that translates to "Universe".
So far all you've got is Allah with a heaven expander because it was too small. Maybe he needs one of those pumps.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
July 4, 2020 at 3:19 am
(July 4, 2020 at 2:58 am)Paleophyte Wrote: Still waiting for that bit that translates to "Universe".
So far all you've got is Allah with a heaven expander because it was too small. Maybe he needs one of those pumps.
Sildenafil possibly will do. 
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
July 4, 2020 at 11:51 pm
(July 4, 2020 at 2:58 am)Paleophyte Wrote: Still waiting for that bit that translates to "Universe".
So far all you've got is Allah with a heaven expander because it was too small. Maybe he needs one of those pumps.
Humph! Merely a lame attempt to co-opt science. 
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
July 5, 2020 at 8:37 pm
islam borrowed quite a bit from christianity, including the bit about allah expanding the universe. part of isaiah 42:5 reads, “thus saith god the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it.”
that part about spreading out the earth will come up again later.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
July 6, 2020 at 2:09 am
(This post was last modified: July 6, 2020 at 2:24 am by GrandizerII.)
(June 29, 2020 at 10:05 am)WinterHold Wrote: (June 29, 2020 at 3:54 am)Grandizer Wrote: Well, it's not obvious to me, Atlas. As a fellow Arabic speaking poster, the word "wase3" and its many derivatives is related more to "wide" or "widening" rather than "expand". Even flat-earthers would agree, I think, that the sky is wide and that the earth is "spread out".
I think I know where you're going: you mean واسع is more related to fasee7 فسيح ?
i.e the verse spoke about God making the heavens vast or spacious; not "expanded".
But my defense is the word "وانا ل"; the "ل" doesn't refer to the past, but to an action that will happen in the future.
i.e, if God said "and the sky is wide" then your point is valid. But he said that the widening is going to happen, the letter "ل" turned the meaning of the word to something "that will happen".
The expansion of the universe is happening right now, but it will also keep happening in the future.
That takes away the relationship to the word "فسيح" because the letter "ل" just turned the word into a verb that will happen in the future.
I'm not much familiar with classic Arabic, so don't know what "la" indicates grammatically. Are you sure it's referring to the future, and not the present? That said, it is important to note the good possibility that, as others have said, this resembles a few verses from the Bible itself where also a clear distinction between the heaven and the earth is made. So it seems to me the cosmology implied is that the heaven (sky) is stretched wide (by the divine) and the earth (separate from heaven) is spread out.
Rereading the verse, I'm not convinced "mousi3oun" is a verb, it sounds to me like it's a noun meaning something like the "widener(s)". "la" seems to be a qualifier of some sort, but not clear if it renders the term right after to be "future". It seems to be an article of some form.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
July 6, 2020 at 9:24 am
(July 6, 2020 at 2:09 am)Grandizer Wrote: (June 29, 2020 at 10:05 am)WinterHold Wrote: I think I know where you're going: you mean واسع is more related to fasee7 فسيح ?
i.e the verse spoke about God making the heavens vast or spacious; not "expanded".
But my defense is the word "وانا ل"; the "ل" doesn't refer to the past, but to an action that will happen in the future.
i.e, if God said "and the sky is wide" then your point is valid. But he said that the widening is going to happen, the letter "ل" turned the meaning of the word to something "that will happen".
The expansion of the universe is happening right now, but it will also keep happening in the future.
That takes away the relationship to the word "فسيح" because the letter "ل" just turned the word into a verb that will happen in the future.
I'm not much familiar with classic Arabic, so don't know what "la" indicates grammatically. Are you sure it's referring to the future, and not the present? That said, it is important to note the good possibility that, as others have said, this resembles a few verses from the Bible itself where also a clear distinction between the heaven and the earth is made. So it seems to me the cosmology implied is that the heaven (sky) is stretched wide (by the divine) and the earth (separate from heaven) is spread out.
Rereading the verse, I'm not convinced "mousi3oun" is a verb, it sounds to me like it's a noun meaning something like the "widener(s)". "la" seems to be a qualifier of some sort, but not clear if it renders the term right after to be "future". It seems to be an article of some form.
Which leads us back to the age old objection of "Why is (your) god such a particularly bad communicator"? Man has been able to learn to communicate better. Man has invented many languages, and some are siad ot be much more precise than others. Why did (your) god chose language(s) with so much inherent ambiguity anyway?
It all just make sno sense.....only if god was an ancient man, as ignorant, as guessing, as bad in communicating as all (other) men were at the time.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
July 6, 2020 at 7:55 pm
(July 6, 2020 at 2:09 am)Grandizer Wrote: (June 29, 2020 at 10:05 am)WinterHold Wrote: I think I know where you're going: you mean واسع is more related to fasee7 فسيح ?
i.e the verse spoke about God making the heavens vast or spacious; not "expanded".
But my defense is the word "وانا ل"; the "ل" doesn't refer to the past, but to an action that will happen in the future.
i.e, if God said "and the sky is wide" then your point is valid. But he said that the widening is going to happen, the letter "ل" turned the meaning of the word to something "that will happen".
The expansion of the universe is happening right now, but it will also keep happening in the future.
That takes away the relationship to the word "فسيح" because the letter "ل" just turned the word into a verb that will happen in the future.
I'm not much familiar with classic Arabic, so don't know what "la" indicates grammatically. Are you sure it's referring to the future, and not the present? That said, it is important to note the good possibility that, as others have said, this resembles a few verses from the Bible itself where also a clear distinction between the heaven and the earth is made. So it seems to me the cosmology implied is that the heaven (sky) is stretched wide (by the divine) and the earth (separate from heaven) is spread out.
Rereading the verse, I'm not convinced "mousi3oun" is a verb, it sounds to me like it's a noun meaning something like the "widener(s)". "la" seems to be a qualifier of some sort, but not clear if it renders the term right after to be "future". It seems to be an article of some form.
"la" in Arabic has more than 4 types, each type adding an extra meaning for a word or a sentence.
The one used in this verse is called "lam al-tawkeed لام التوكيد"; it gets added to the "verbal sentence" and doesn't affect the "future tense".
An example for it is "ان التاريخ ليعيد نفسه "
Or in franco-Arabic writing: "2n al taree5 la yo3eedo nafsah"
In English: "history repeat itself".
Yes I'm sure about the future; the "lam al tawkeed" never comes with the past or present; or else the whole sentence doesn't make any sense.
"Mouse3oon موسعون" is called "اسم فاعل" from the original verb "awsa3 اوسع".
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
July 6, 2020 at 8:00 pm
(This post was last modified: July 6, 2020 at 8:16 pm by GrandizerII.)
(July 6, 2020 at 7:55 pm)WinterHold Wrote: (July 6, 2020 at 2:09 am)Grandizer Wrote: I'm not much familiar with classic Arabic, so don't know what "la" indicates grammatically. Are you sure it's referring to the future, and not the present? That said, it is important to note the good possibility that, as others have said, this resembles a few verses from the Bible itself where also a clear distinction between the heaven and the earth is made. So it seems to me the cosmology implied is that the heaven (sky) is stretched wide (by the divine) and the earth (separate from heaven) is spread out.
Rereading the verse, I'm not convinced "mousi3oun" is a verb, it sounds to me like it's a noun meaning something like the "widener(s)". "la" seems to be a qualifier of some sort, but not clear if it renders the term right after to be "future". It seems to be an article of some form.
"la" in Arabic has more than 4 types, each type adding an extra meaning for a word or a sentence.
The one used in this verse is called "lam al-tawkeed لام التوكيد"; it gets added to the "verbal sentence" and doesn't affect the "future tense".
An example for it is "ان التاريخ ليعيد نفسه "
Or in franco-Arabic writing: "2n al taree5 la yo3eedo nafsah"
In English: "history repeat itself".
Yes I'm sure about the future; the "lam al tawkeed" never comes with the past or present; or else the whole sentence doesn't make any sense.
"Mouse3oon موسعون" is called "اسم فاعل" from the original verb "awsa3 اوسع".
From what I'm reading, this "lam al tawkeed" is for emphasis, and nothing to do with time?
And if "mouse3oon" is an "ism" (noun) does it not mean "that/those who widen" (youse3)?
Look at it this way. Instead of "mouse3oun", let's consider the word "khalikoon" instead.
Wa inna la khalikoon (if I'm doing it right) should translate to "We are the creator(s)", it doesn't mean they will continue creating into the future, only that they are [its] creator
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding
July 7, 2020 at 7:44 pm
(This post was last modified: July 7, 2020 at 7:52 pm by WinterHold.)
(July 6, 2020 at 8:00 pm)Grandizer Wrote: (July 6, 2020 at 7:55 pm)WinterHold Wrote: "la" in Arabic has more than 4 types, each type adding an extra meaning for a word or a sentence.
The one used in this verse is called "lam al-tawkeed لام التوكيد"; it gets added to the "verbal sentence" and doesn't affect the "future tense".
An example for it is "ان التاريخ ليعيد نفسه "
Or in franco-Arabic writing: "2n al taree5 la yo3eedo nafsah"
In English: "history repeat itself".
Yes I'm sure about the future; the "lam al tawkeed" never comes with the past or present; or else the whole sentence doesn't make any sense.
"Mouse3oon موسعون" is called "اسم فاعل" from the original verb "awsa3 اوسع".
From what I'm reading, this "lam al tawkeed" is for emphasis, and nothing to do with time?
I checked more books on this:
Quran syntax
It's more specifically an "2sm 7al اسم حال-situation/condition noun", connected the "verb "built" ".
Quote:And if "mouse3oon" is an "ism" (noun) does it not mean "that/those who widen" (youse3)?
I was wrong in this post, the "lam" doesn't turn the word to a verb:
Quote:Winterhold said:
That takes away the relationship to the word "فسيح" because the letter "ل" just turned the word into a verb that will happen in the future.
The correct explanation for the syntax is that It's a "situation noun" connected to the verb "built". I believe that makes more sense, this is what the books were saying as I understand.
So it goes like this -as I understand-: "the heavens were built "verb" and their situation/condition is that they are expanded by God"situation/condition noun".
Quote:Look at it this way. Instead of "mouse3oun", let's consider the word "khalikoon" instead.
Wa inna la khalikoon (if I'm doing it right) should translate to "We are the creator(s)", it doesn't mean they will continue creating into the future, only that they are [its] creator
"Mowse3oon" is a "situation noun اسم حال", it describes a state or a "situation": the situation of the heavens are the expansion by God.
"Khalikoon" must fit into the frame of the sentence's meaning and context; it doesn't fit in this.
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