(July 14, 2020 at 11:15 am)polymath257 Wrote:

(July 14, 2020 at 11:00 am)WinterHold Wrote: Indeed; it's a proof of the type of thought they believe in and advocate, so let them talk it out and expose the Trojan horse they use.

I'm interested in the history of medieval Europe too but for different reasons: the warfare and the knights are my main concern. I find it amusing -though brutal- to picture masses of ironed men clashing into each other; the amount of weight in the single  European army at that time was...just amusing.

I read quickly through that link. But I carry a thought that states: the Church didn't make any progress in terms of science, but the Crusades showed the outside world -which was mainly Muslim- to Europeans. Then -after these expeditions- Europe began to catch up and rise from the dark.

Italy was very touched by Islamic civilization:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of...hern_Italy

The way I picture it like this:
(Greece & Rome & Persia held science--->Islam conquered them and preserved the science and added tons to it---->the later generations of Rome re-discovered what their civilizations lost from science)

It's a cycle as I see it.

Rather an over simplified view, frankly.

A great deal of Greek knowledge was preserved by the Byzantine empire. This is the source of many of the texts later translated for western Europe.

Islamic civilization didn't *just* preserve that knowledge: it extended that knowledge in many different directions. In particular, a lot of advances were made in medicine, mathematics, astronomy, optics, etc.

Once in Europe, it was primarily the Christian monks that did the translations and the Christian cathedral schools that discussed and promoted the 'new' learning. It was there that many ideas concerning motion, inertia, the nature of the vacuum, and other physical concepts were elucidated. It was a monk that first investigated what we know would call fractional exponents and imagined irrational exponents.

Also, the Christian view partly underlies the very notion of a 'natural law', with the corresponding idea that humans could potentially discover and understand such laws. Much of this discussion serves as the foundation for the much later rise of modern science.

My view towards science is that it's best utilized and practiced by all humans together; not just a portion of society. Under this view I treasure the "Open Source" method of spreading knowledge.

Science in its image today is a collaboration of cultures. The Church didn't believe in that and its actions prove it, but Muslims opened their universities for all; even non-Muslims. That's why the Church fell; and Muslims ruled in that era.

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(July 14, 2020 at 11:38 am)ido Wrote: There have been some alarming developments in Turkey over the course of the past few years. Hardliners in the Turkish government have been promoting ministers and officers who are devout Muslims. These people are openly scornful of the secular nature of the Turkish political system and it's no secret that they want to consolidate power and set the clock back 100 years, and if they get their way, it'll happen. It's a terrible shame that the coup failed. Things would be infinitely better if it had been successful.

That coup in Turkey failed because the majority of people wanted Erdogan. Turkish people are far well educated than their counterparts in Egypt -who wasted their revolution by handing the country back to the army post 2011-. Even in tourism, Turkey ranked 7th in the whole world under Erdogan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

Your propaganda fails miserably in front of numbers. You know you're a liar, your reader know you're a liar, even Erdogan knows you're a liar, the IT people in Tora Bora know you're a liar, your wife -if you have any- knows you're a liar, but you lie still, because you're a liar with no cause, even wikipedia shows that you're a liar. So........meh...

(July 14, 2020 at 12:11 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

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(July 14, 2020 at 11:38 am)ido Wrote: There have been some alarming developments in Turkey over the course of the past few years. Hardliners in the Turkish government have been promoting ministers and officers who are devout Muslims. These people are openly scornful of the secular nature of the Turkish political system and it's no secret that they want to consolidate power and set the clock back 100 years, and if they get their way, it'll happen. It's a terrible shame that the coup failed. Things would be infinitely better if it had been successful.

That coup in Turkey failed because the majority of people wanted Erdogan. Turkish people are far well educated than their counterparts in Egypt -who wasted their revolution by handing the country back to the army post 2011-.

T

Egypt ?! who cares !
What possible reason could there be to take such a step? Anybody who has ever been there knows that there are half a dozen mosques within a kilometre of the Hagia Sophia, so it's not as though they're in desperate need of more. The only reason anybody could offer up is this: The Turkish government is sending an unmistakable message.They are saying "Turkey is a Muslim country, we may say that we're secular, but we're really no different from any other Islamic republic."

Quote:That coup in Turkey failed because the majority of people wanted Erdogan. Turkish people are far well educated than their counterparts in Egypt -who wasted their revolution by handing the country back to the army post 2011-.

Yup by warmongering

Quote:My view towards science is that it's best utilized and practiced by all humans together; not just a portion of society. Under this view I treasure the "Open Source" method of spreading knowledge.

Science in its image today is a collaboration of cultures. The Church didn't believe in that and its actions prove it, but Muslims opened their universities for all; even non-Muslims. That's why the Church fell; and Muslims ruled in that era.

False

If you've ever been to Turkey, you know that there are three very big problems there. Number One is the urban/rural divide - that really puts a wedge between people... Number Two is the divide between eastern and western Turkey... And Number Three is the delicate balance between the religious and the secular segments of the population. Put those things together and you have a very bad situation, a very divided people and the conditions for a large-scale confrontation between people who take opposing sides on these things.

(July 14, 2020 at 12:21 pm)ido Wrote:

(July 14, 2020 at 12:11 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

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That coup in Turkey failed because the majority of people wanted Erdogan. Turkish people are far well educated than their counterparts in Egypt -who wasted their revolution by handing the country back to the army post 2011-.

T

Egypt ?! who cares !
What possible reason could there be to take such a step? Anybody who has ever been there knows that there are half a dozen mosques within a kilometre of the Hagia Sophia, so it's not as though they're in desperate need of more. The only reason anybody could offer up is this: The Turkish government is sending an unmistakable message.They are saying "Turkey is a Muslim country, we may say that we're secular, but we're really no different from any other Islamic republic."

I care. This is a multi-cultural forum.

The Turkish people want it a mosque. They voted for it to be a mosque. So it's an internal Turkish affair.
The Turkish people voted, so why do you care? their country; their rule.

(July 14, 2020 at 12:33 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(July 14, 2020 at 12:21 pm)ido Wrote: Egypt ?! who cares !
What possible reason could there be to take such a step? Anybody who has ever been there knows that there are half a dozen mosques within a kilometre of the Hagia Sophia, so it's not as though they're in desperate need of more. The only reason anybody could offer up is this: The Turkish government is sending an unmistakable message.They are saying "Turkey is a Muslim country, we may say that we're secular, but we're really no different from any other Islamic republic."

I care. This is a multi-cultural forum.

The Turkish people want it a mosque. They voted for it to be a mosque. So it's an internal Turkish affair.
The Turkish people voted, so why do you care? their country; their rule.

Plainly and simply, the people in the smaller cities, towns, and villages in the eastern part of the country who tend to be more traditional don't have any respect for the people living in the cities and towns in western Turkey who tend to be more progressive. It comes down to politics, money, and of course a situation where people are vying to be the driving force in the collective national identity. It's a powder keg and it's going to go off in the very near future. This appeasement of the hardliners who are looking to bring Islam back into Turkish politics is bad for everybody. It's bad for Turks and it's bad for everybody else too. 

It's a terrible shame that the coup failed. Things would be infinitely better today if the faction that instigated it had managed to depose Erdogan.

(July 14, 2020 at 12:24 pm)ido Wrote: If you've ever been to Turkey, you know that there are three very big problems there. Number One is the urban/rural divide - that really puts a wedge between people... Number Two is the divide between eastern and western Turkey... And Number Three is the delicate balance between the religious and the secular segments of the population. Put those things together and you have a very bad situation, a very divided people and the conditions for a large-scale confrontation between people who take opposing sides on these things.

But the Turkish people -along with their parties- voted.
So, internal Turkish affair. You can join your resisting vote to the Vatican though, Greece and France.

But it's an internal Turkish affair.

(July 14, 2020 at 12:37 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(July 14, 2020 at 12:24 pm)ido Wrote: If you've ever been to Turkey, you know that there are three very big problems there. Number One is the urban/rural divide - that really puts a wedge between people... Number Two is the divide between eastern and western Turkey... And Number Three is the delicate balance between the religious and the secular segments of the population. Put those things together and you have a very bad situation, a very divided people and the conditions for a large-scale confrontation between people who take opposing sides on these things.

But the Turkish people -along with their parties- voted.
So, internal Turkish affair. You can join your resisting vote to the Vatican though, Greece and France.

But it's an internal Turkish affair.

But was there a vote, though? I understood that Erdogan did this via a decree.

Boru

(July 14, 2020 at 12:37 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(July 14, 2020 at 12:24 pm)ido Wrote: If you've ever been to Turkey, you know that there are three very big problems there. Number One is the urban/rural divide - that really puts a wedge between people... Number Two is the divide between eastern and western Turkey... And Number Three is the delicate balance between the religious and the secular segments of the population. Put those things together and you have a very bad situation, a very divided people and the conditions for a large-scale confrontation between people who take opposing sides on these things.

But the Turkish people -along with their parties- voted.
So, internal Turkish affair. You can join your resisting vote to the Vatican though, Greece and France.

But it's an internal Turkish affair.

The Hagia Sophia is nearly 1,500 years old. It's a world heritage site. It's one of the most visited places in Turkey. The structure doesn't only belong to Turks, but belongs to all of humanity. It's complete sacrilege and total madness to re-consecrate the building as a mosque.

(July 14, 2020 at 12:36 pm)ido Wrote:

(July 14, 2020 at 12:33 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I care. This is a multi-cultural forum.

The Turkish people want it a mosque. They voted for it to be a mosque. So it's an internal Turkish affair.
The Turkish people voted, so why do you care? their country; their rule.

Plainly and simply, the people in the smaller cities, towns, and villages in the eastern part of the country who tend to be more traditional don't have any respect for the people living in the cities and towns in western Turkey who tend to be more progressive. It comes down to politics, money, and of course a situation where people are vying to be the driving force in the collective national identity. It's a powder keg and it's going to go off in the very near future. This appeasement of the hardliners who are looking to bring Islam back into Turkish politics is bad for everybody. It's bad for Turks and it's bad for everybody else too. 

It's a terrible shame that the coup failed. Things would be infinitely better today if the faction that instigated it had managed to depose Erdogan.

Who cares?
What authenticity does your "prophecies" have?

The voting box talk, numbers talk.