(July 23, 2020 at 8:27 am)Shazzalovesnovels Wrote:

(July 23, 2020 at 8:25 am)tackattack Wrote: Oh shit. Did you just say evidence....   out come the pitchforks

It's hard evidence to me, even if its all theoretical to you.

That's because you clearly have no idea what constitutes valid evidence.

Yah, if something is evidence to one group and not to another group, that's a sign that it's not really evidence at all. I'd be interested to know why she doesn't think we'd consider her evidence to be evidence.

Sharon, you asked me at some point why I took the 'further step' of joining an atheist forum. My interest in religion and logic eventually turned me into an atheist. I remain interested in those things and an atheist forum is the place to discuss them that suits me best. I get to see a lot of arguments, good and bad, and it's more entertaining than a philosophy forum. It can be hard to have these kinds of conversations in person in South Carolina.

The little tirade about human ingratitude toward the blood god who strung a jew up was precious. You seem to keep wondering what's stopping you from being an asshole, if there were no god. I'd say nothings stopping you from being an asshole even if there is a god.

(July 23, 2020 at 8:27 am)Shazzalovesnovels Wrote:

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(July 23, 2020 at 8:25 am)tackattack Wrote: Oh shit. Did you just say evidence....   out come the pitchforks

It's hard evidence to me, even if its all theoretical to you.

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(July 22, 2020 at 10:07 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Jealous, not selfish.

I feel like you're new to this. It's never a good idea to witness on an atheist forum, but if you have to do it, please study your material properly first and then come witness.

Sure thing. I really hope you're all wrong about this. because it's scary to think that we're doing all this living for nothing

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Well firstly I'm a Christian theist. I don't what kind of evidence you have to offer, but using the words "hard evidence" was just a warning that you're going to ruffle some feathers around here.

Secondly, If you're doing all your living for nothing then you should check out 1 Corinthians 13. Living has the purpose of Loving, even without belief in a God. If loving others isn't enough purpose without your belief in God, then you might be living a tenuous life of fear and hopelessness.

We're gonna break this one. I can see the straw falling.

Then you'll all be sorry.

Asking where we go after death is like asking where the music goes when the band stops playing.

It certainly doesn't have anything to do with right and wrong in this life. Assume that there are places we go when we die.

Are things right or wrong, in this life, with respect to which place the sorting hat sends us when we die? If the sorting hat sent me to hell for giving a beggar bread, would that make giving a beggar bread bad, and if the sorting hat sent me to heaven for raping and pillaging my way through a neighbors territory, would rape and pillage, then, be good? I ask this question because the faithful very often seem to have the final destination of our souls conflated with the moral field, but I find it difficult to believe that believers genuinely believe as much. That, confronted with a heaven admitting edict from a god to do some horrible thing, they would suddenly feel that the horrible thing was not horrible.

There is nothing in all of our data about moral intuitions that would affirm this, it would be completely inexplicable. As far as we can tell, it's just not how people work. Why, then, does it feature so prominently in evangelistic effort and apologists arguments?

I interpret this common idea as a miscommunication, as a person explaining that they find heaven and hell to be so compelling that they personally might do (or not do) something on the basis of where they were going to go when they died - a transactionary religion with compelling motivations - compelling enough to do a bad thing for the golden ticket. What do you think Shazz, is it difficult to understand why a person might do a thing to acquire some other item that they desire? Atheists may not be chasing that golden ticket, but we desire other things, and those desires are as compelling as motivations to us as your desire is to you. For some people, the simple joy and satisfaction of doing good for goodness sake is enough.

(July 22, 2020 at 8:13 am)Shazzalovesnovels Wrote: He with a capital 'H'


And I only know Him by God/Jesus/Jehovah. The rest are fictional.

The only difference between me and thee then is that I realise that one more god is fictional than you do.

(July 23, 2020 at 8:08 am)Shazzalovesnovels Wrote:

(July 22, 2020 at 9:58 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: If your god made everything, who made god?
If a god made everything, where was he before anything existed? (heaven or "another plane of existance" is no answer because that would be part of "everything")

If someone made God then HE is God. Because there is no one greater than God.

So it *isn't* the case that everything needs a maker. Right? And, once you allow for one exception, the natural question is why not others? How many 'uncaused causes' can there be?

Also, how do you know that there isn't more than one God? Maybe a committee that all decided how to make the world? (Given the issues facing the world, I would suggest a committee is a good explanation). Maybe the 'creation' didn't involve an intelligence (so 'God' would not be an appropriate word to use). Maybe creation was a 'mistake' or a side effect of some other project.

And how do you *know* that there is 'no one' greater? How do you know there isn't an infinite regress of 'greatness'?

You make a host of assumptions to justify your particular belief system. maybe you should investigate those assumptions a bit more?

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(July 23, 2020 at 8:23 am)Shazzalovesnovels Wrote:

(July 23, 2020 at 8:17 am)Eleven Wrote: Plenty of people are greater than god when they realize they could do better by the world with that kind of omnipotence.

However, since god is a mere fictional concept, reality is much greater than god.

Its so difficult to argue with an atheist when all your evidence is based on something they don't even believe in.
Wouldn't you want there to be a God?

1. Why would my desires on the issue be relevant?

If anything, my desire for something to be true is good reason to be skeptical about it. THAT is where I amikely to make a faulty assumption.

2. Why would I want there to be a God? The universe seems wonderful enough as it is.

3. If all the evidence you want to use is being disregarded, maybe that's because it is flimsy evidence or not even evidence at all.

(July 22, 2020 at 11:29 am)Shazzalovesnovels Wrote:

(July 22, 2020 at 11:24 am)Gwaithmir Wrote: I think it's rather obvious that you don't understand atheism because you don't WANT to understand atheism.

I do. I want to ANSWERS before I die. (which is impossible but you have no idea how hard i'll try. I have a lot of curiosity it will probably be the end of me).
its 1:30 am here so I'm gonna get some sleep.

I am a former Christian.  I was converted into evangelical circles when I was your age, moved to mainstream Christianity, and then became an atheist about 10 years ago.

I am happier now than I was as a Christian, and I admit that I "know" fewer answers than I thought I knew.  My understanding and beliefs will evolve until I die.

If you want answers about what you are, and where you are going, I have some thoughts

1. What is the purpose of life?  You make your own purpose, through your interaction with the world and others.  There are lots of purposes to be found, though love and positive achievement.
   
2. Is there reward/punishment for behavior?  Yes, in this life, both in our internal happiness, and in societal acceptance.  And yes, sometimes bad things don't get punished and good things go unrewarded.  Work toward the justice you think is lacking.
   
3. Where do we go when we die?  The same place you were before you were born.  Nowhere.  Consciousness is a process, not an item.  When the process ceases due to coma, drugs, or death, it simply "isn't".
   
4. Isn't life meaningless if it simply ends?  No, it is more precious.  Life is change, both with the joys and sorrows.  An eternity without change, struggle or growth would be a truly meaningless existence.
   
5. Aren't atheists scared of death?  Yes and no.  The animal in us has evolved a visceral fear of death, but I have no existential fear of ceasing to exist.  I am eager to live in the now, far more than when I was a Christian living for an afterlife.  And I am far more at peace with my mortality than when I was a Christian.
   

I am also happy to discuss the ridiculous ideas around the Christian god, and why it is overwhelmingly unlikely that such a being exists, but that's a different post. You mentioned that you haven't got through the OT (Leviticus is heavy - not worth ready every law). Every Christian should (I have). There would be fewer Christians that way.