(August 4, 2020 at 3:29 am)Eleven Wrote: No, I’m not playing your game.

If you refuse to comprehend the logic of what I have already presented in this thread, the fault lies with you.

Good day.

Supporting your claims is playing a game? 

Which black atheists have argued that Christianity has been harmful to black people in America overall? Of course some Christian white people have been horribly harmful, but this doesn't mean that black people's own Christianity is always a negative.

Black people who don't believe in God (i.e. atheists) may nonetheless feel that the black church has been of benefit in society.

So if you could provide me some links as to which black atheists agree with you, that would help me understand the background. 

I'm assuming that you really want to discuss the thesis... If you only want total agreement I don't know why you'd post here.

One figure who would dispute your thesis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornel_West

(August 3, 2020 at 9:42 pm)Eleven Wrote: Some black people like to go on and on, conspiratorially, regarding flimsy connections of black men being modern slaves to what they have a bias against.

Lets be honest, however.

If the black man is a slave to anything in today's world, it is Christianity. Historically, the black man has no origin ties to the white man's god or the white man's dogma. In fact, Christianity and white man's god was forced upon the black men via southern American slavery. The black man has discarded the shackles of Victorian slavery yet he still remains a slave to the white man's god. Why? Clearly, the indoctrination worked, and thus the black man will never truly be free of slavery so long as he continues to believe in a god that was viciously thrust upon him.

Grow up, black people. If you're a slave of anything anymore, have the intellectual honesty to admit that its Christianity. So long as you stay shackled to such a backwards belief system, you'll never truly be free.

Grow up? Who the fuck are you to tell black people to grow up?

Your utterly uninformed and unempathetic opinion on this matter is of no relevance. You aren't a part of the black community and you don't get to lecture them on why they should view Christianity as slavery because your interpretation is not agreed upon by everyone. People can see things differently from how you see things and still be reasonable.

Bit like the gentry introducing potatoes. It was definitely meant to accomplish one set of goals, and the recipients went another way with it as well.

Gotta love the internet.

There's something endearing about a white atheist gay man preaching to a black hetero Christian man about how to live his life...

Can you possibly get a wider disconnect than this

We either believe that there are valid and objective criticisms of christianity's role in the formation and maintenance of american slavery - and in that case it doesn't really matter who is delivering the message to whom - or we don't...and it still doesn't mater.

It is true, unfortunately, that not all people read something with the critical intent of thoughtfully understanding the core message. I don’t blame them, not everyone can be as brilliant as me.

I don't get the American "exceptionalism" on this, but I have to ask: what does the color of one's skin have to do with if a god exists or not?

I get the historical significance of the use of religion to control the masses by inscrupulous people, such as using it within slavery as a control mechanism. But this isn't exclusive to Christianity or any particular group of people.

To me it's the proliferation and memetic virility of bad ideas in any population that is able to survive in today's otherwise skeptical & critical thinking environment that just baffles me.

I guess the aftershock of slavery is still felt today, such as systemic racism.

(August 4, 2020 at 6:49 am)Sal Wrote: I don't get the American "exceptionalism" on this

There are A LOT of things about America I don't understand..... So I'm with you on this one.

Quote:what does the color of one's skin have to do with if a god exists or not?

If the question is whether God exists or not, then of course no one's skin color has anything to do with the issue. 

Quote:I get the historical significance of the use of religion to control the masses by inscrupulous people, such as using it within slavery as a control mechanism. But this isn't exclusive to Christianity or any particular group of people.

All this is true. 

And it's overly simple to say that any religion has ONLY been a means to control the masses. Any big religion has been used that way, but any big religion also has a wide variety of opinions and aims within it. Dissent from the mainstream of Christianity has been around as long as Christianity has been around. 

Black Christians in America don't use their church in the same way that white slaveholders used theirs. 

Conflating these is not only historically false but risks flat-out bigotry.

Quote:To me it's the proliferation and memetic virility of bad ideas in any population that is able to survive in today's otherwise skeptical & critical thinking environment that just baffles me.

Absolutely. 

And among the bad ideas that are holding on is the one that the OP demonstrates. That we can tell other people they are delusional without making any argument, without any knowledge of historical particulars, without consulting any of the people who know more about the issue than we do. 

If an atheist merely says "black Christians, like all other religious believers, are incorrect," that's a metaphysical question. Atheists of course believe that theists are mistaken. 

But Eleven goes way beyond that. He's saying that an important institution in black America exists only to oppress its members. This is not the opinion of its members, and there is historical evidence that in some fortunate cases, the church acts to liberate, not oppress. Our opposition to the oppression doesn't justify condemning the cases when it empowers and supports the oppressed. 

Quote:I guess the aftershock of slavery is still felt today, such as systemic racism.

Undoubtedly. There are still way too many racists in America. And some of them don't even see when they're being racist.

At work.

*Laughs to self after reading Bell's post*

Your time (While hopefully wonderfully amazing) spent immersed in a foreign language really is NOT helping your comprehension, Mate.

It's not about the theology ye Numpty.

It's about the edifice and all the nasty human 'Phsyche' (Can't quite think of the word to match the concept in my head atm. Sorry) that accrue within.

Hope I'm on the right track. Let me know Eleven,

Cheers.

(August 4, 2020 at 7:32 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: It's not about the theology ye Numpty.

That's right. It's not about the theology. I just got through saying that in the post above.

If you think I'm talking about theology, then you're the one with the comprehension problem. Read what I say.

The issue is not theology. The issue is the role that Christianity plays for black Americans.