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RE: Christians what would change your mind?
August 10, 2020 at 1:08 pm
(This post was last modified: August 10, 2020 at 1:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Would you characterize a belief in christ to be fringe, among christians? If I asserted that all christians believe in christ, how unfair of a representation would you consider that to be?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christians what would change your mind?
August 10, 2020 at 1:42 pm
(August 10, 2020 at 1:05 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: The problem begins with bias and ends with a fallacy. Bias creates an inclination to look at the fringes of a normal distribution curve in an opposing population. If you then take the fringe as representative of the population, you run into a statistical issue known as the exception fallacy. Or if you take a belief lying at the center of the distribution and apply it towards other individuals in that population you've created an ecological fallacy.
The beliefs are not the problem; the problem is how your represent them.
Do you mean that when I see a sizable number of Christians using crusader imagery and calling themselves "prayer warriors," I can't point to that as a well represented attribute of Christians because I haven't sampled and done statistical analysis on all Christians? Be mindful that this is not how I represent them. It's how they represent themselves.
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RE: Christians what would change your mind?
August 10, 2020 at 2:13 pm
(This post was last modified: August 10, 2020 at 2:16 pm by John 6IX Breezy.)
(August 10, 2020 at 1:42 pm)Ranjr Wrote: Do you mean that when I see a sizable number of Christians using crusader imagery and calling themselves "prayer warriors," I can't point to that as a well represented attribute of Christians because I haven't sampled and done statistical analysis on all Christians? Be mindful that this is not how I represent them. It's how they represent themselves.
Just be mindful that a sizeable portion of a population is in fact a sizeable portion of a population and not the entire the population.
If they call themselves prayer warriors, call them prayer warriors. Don't call them by a different synonym that carries with it a different connotation. Such as "militant communicators of an invisible sky fairy." That's a misrepresentation.
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RE: Christians what would change your mind?
August 10, 2020 at 2:18 pm
(This post was last modified: August 10, 2020 at 2:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Why? If your objection is to anything other than the accuracy of the statement....it's not much of an objection, imo.
I think we can dispense with prayer warrioring without resorting to these kinds of objections anyway. It's performative language. They find it's recitation empowering, but you probably shouldn't expect to find them booting up for hand to hand combat against the infidel.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christians what would change your mind?
August 10, 2020 at 2:24 pm
The complaint of the religious is that we don't give their idea's dignity they don't deserve . It is outrage at irreverence not truth or accuracy. That is used as an excuse to dismiss criticism without engaging it .
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
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“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
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RE: Christians what would change your mind?
August 10, 2020 at 2:31 pm
I'd agree, and add that this is also unnecessary to belief, apologism, or evangelism - even if it seems ever present in all three. A believing christian could concede, for example, that vicarious redemption is an unflattering spotlight which does not rest on or proceed from any rational inference and...ultimately, would not be a persuasive argument.
Faith does not rest upon flattering descriptions, logical inference, or persuasion.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christians what would change your mind?
August 10, 2020 at 2:39 pm
(August 10, 2020 at 2:13 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: (August 10, 2020 at 1:42 pm)Ranjr Wrote: Do you mean that when I see a sizable number of Christians using crusader imagery and calling themselves "prayer warriors," I can't point to that as a well represented attribute of Christians because I haven't sampled and done statistical analysis on all Christians? Be mindful that this is not how I represent them. It's how they represent themselves.
Just be mindful that a sizeable portion of a population is in fact a sizeable portion of a population and not the entire the population.
If they call themselves prayer warriors, call them prayer warriors. Don't call them by a different synonym that carries with it a different connotation. Such as "militant communicators of an invisible sky fairy." That's a misrepresentation. Pointing out the difference between some and all is as trivial as your larger point.
Prayer warriors ask god for favors as a group effort, a pooling of prayer requests. I can characterize that in other ways without misrepresenting the activity. So, while I agree terms like "magic man in the sky" and talk of fairies have a tone of insult, they also bring a different perspective to christian behaviors that do not necessarily misrepresent the behavior.
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RE: Christians what would change your mind?
August 10, 2020 at 2:44 pm
(This post was last modified: August 10, 2020 at 2:46 pm by John 6IX Breezy.)
(August 10, 2020 at 2:24 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: The complaint of the religious is that we don't give their idea's dignity they don't deserve . It is outrage at irreverence not truth or accuracy. That is used as an excuse to dismiss criticism without engaging it .
All ideas deserve the dignity of being properly represented. Words are imbued with emotional coloring which varies even as the literal meaning stays the same. As Bertrand Russell put it, "I am firm; you are obstinate; he is pigheaded." Synonyms vary in connotation, and with it their accuracy.
To call God a magical sky fairy is a deliberate attempt to change a words connotation for the purposes of misrepresenting it.
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RE: Christians what would change your mind?
August 10, 2020 at 2:51 pm
Your point is that it's Russell conjugation?
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RE: Christians what would change your mind?
August 10, 2020 at 2:52 pm
(This post was last modified: August 10, 2020 at 3:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
In what way are the ideas being improperly represented? If the presentation is accurate, but unflattering, this seems like it would be a trivial sense of impropriety. Do your pet ideas actually deserve more "dignity" than that?
I recall someone commenting on in and outgroup bias, recently. Is it possible that bias causes some people to believe that an idea deserves some level of dignity, or more dignity (whatever more dignity means) in much the same way that some other bias might lead a person to assume that it deserves less? How should we split the baby? How would you split the baby. I contend that a belief in christ is uncharitable, illogical, and unpersuasive. Let's just suppose that some of this is due to my never having been christian. Which of the three potential cases of bias would you like to correct, John?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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