(August 10, 2020 at 3:30 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You have the jesus of your imagination in mind. The jesus of new magic book was a bit less wholesome.

How do you figure?

(August 10, 2020 at 1:22 am)Tulayhah-Asadi Wrote: What attracts me to someone like Jesus of Nazareth is my belief that he is someone that would happily embrace all these outcasts and be a light unto them. But where can we find someone like that today? 

Yes, the gospel message is expressed so simply, and yet is so hard to implement. And of course it is so widely and effectively opposed by anyone in power, that it has taken centuries to make even a tiny bit of progress, which is always threatened. 

I think that at root, what is demanded is a change of heart. But there has been a millennia-long debate among Christians as to what this change of heart would lead to, in terms of practical action. 

And I do think that in the US, anyway, politics and economics have to be at the heart of it. Both Dems and Reps are so blatant in their desire to serve the rich and further impoverish the poor, that a focus on the centers of power makes sense. It's kind of like the environmental movement -- each of us is made to feel guilty and urged to recycle and do our part, through a change in our heart, while the vast majority of the damage is being done by about half a dozen evil groups, including the US military. A change in personal attitudes about consumption is good but only a tiny part of what's necessary to make any meaningful change. 

The powerful people want us to fear Putin and whoever is running Iran, but Steve Mnuchin has done more harm to Americans than anyone overseas. The people who get rich from developing and selling pharmaceuticals while hiding the addictive qualities, the insurance executives who are enriched from other people's misfortune -- these, to me, are the evil powers mentioned in the New Testament.

Well, don't forget the pig demons and witches of the world. They certainly meant that, too, when they talked about The Evil Powers.

(August 10, 2020 at 3:39 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(August 10, 2020 at 1:22 am)Tulayhah-Asadi Wrote: What attracts me to someone like Jesus of Nazareth is my belief that he is someone that would happily embrace all these outcasts and be a light unto them. But where can we find someone like that today? 

Yes, the gospel message is expressed so simply, and yet is so hard to implement. And of course it is so widely and effectively opposed by anyone in power, that it has taken centuries to make even a tiny bit of progress, which is always threatened. 

I think that at root, what is demanded is a change of heart. But there has been a millennia-long debate among Christians as to what this change of heart would lead to, in terms of practical action. 

And I do think that in the US, anyway, politics and economics have to be at the heart of it. Both Dems and Reps are so blatant in their desire to serve the rich and further impoverish the poor, that a focus on the centers of power makes sense. It's kind of like the environmental movement -- each of us is made to feel guilty and urged to recycle and do our part, through a change in our heart, while the vast majority of the damage is being done by about half a dozen evil groups, including the US military. A change in personal attitudes about consumption is good but only a tiny part of what's necessary to make any meaningful change. 

The powerful people want us to fear Putin and whoever is running Iran, but Steve Mnuchin has done more harm to Americans than anyone overseas. The people who get rich from developing and selling pharmaceuticals while hiding the addictive qualities, the insurance executives who are enriched from other people's misfortune -- these, to me, are the evil powers mentioned in the New Testament.

I have mixed feelings about this narrative. On the one hand, you are right that so much that is wrong and unjust with this world is because political power is in the hands of a certain type of people whose greed trumps common morality and goodness. On the other hand, it is also true that those who rule us are not aliens from another planet, but people like us, and they reflect our own condition as a society. Therefore, a mere changing of the guard won't create a fundamental transformation in my opinion. Just look at how Communist revolutions in Russia and China empowered an entirely different category of people, removing the capitalists and industrialists, yet nothing good came out of it, in fact it was a change for the worse. So in my narrative, grassroots level change is the way, and not the political narrative of seizing power from the current establishment. Show me a society where virtually everyone are living lives of purity and altruism, and I guarantee you their political leadership will be a reflection of them. In summary, I simply do not subscribe to the political ideology.

What about Jesus? I think he made it pretty clear when he said "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's" and "My kingdom is not of this world", his ministry was not meant to challenge the ruling elite. His attitude was, so what let them carry on with their business, the real work is to uplift souls on the ground. The establishment he did challenge was the religious establishment, but his challenging of them meant his rebuking of their hypocrisy and corruption. So I'm not necessarily interested in replacing but in reforming.
I believe Fate has written that the geopolitical condition of this world will pretty much always be as you see it now, powerful empires and superpowers exploiting the weak, waging wars and proxy wars against each other, and consuming the Earth's finite natural resources. It is simply beyond the capacity of any movement, no matter how popular, to reverse this trend. Nothing short of a Divine intervention can.

I figure in the same way that anyone else might.

This is the character who starts his career by knocking heads in a temple because he thinks that they're worshiping wrong. Who told the jews that they belonged to their father, the devil, and wanted to bring about his desires. Who claimed that anyone who didn't hate his family and this life could't be a disciple. Who asserted that the members of other tribes are subhumans. Who claims that his is the only way to the father, all else being damned. Who deferred to rome, and who ultimately proposed the death of the better man as a sacrifice for our innumerable sins.

This was no good man. This was not a man with a big welcoming tent. These are things that would get you or I on a list of hatemongers, committed to an institution, in prison - or all of the above. If The Real Jesus™ were alive today, he'd be an insurgent, not a social worker.

(August 9, 2020 at 11:54 pm)Tulayhah-Asadi Wrote: I've read the Gospels and came to the conclusion that this is the most radical yet profound message. I'm not a Christian, I certainly don't subscribe to the theology. Can someone cite for me similar teachings that predate or are contemporaneous?

If you search for resurrecting gods who died for people, you might find Hitchen's list of about 6.

Regards
DL

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(August 10, 2020 at 3:30 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You have the jesus of your imagination in mind. The jesus of new magic book was a bit less wholesome.

You are generous and correct on both counts.

I see Yahweh as immoral and many of Jesus' moral tenets are not moral at all.

I especially dislike his no divorce for women and substitutional punishment.

His genocide of us when he return is also a moral turn off.

Regards
DL

(August 10, 2020 at 7:53 am)Greatest I am Wrote:

(August 9, 2020 at 11:54 pm)Tulayhah-Asadi Wrote: I've read the Gospels and came to the conclusion that this is the most radical yet profound message. I'm not a Christian, I certainly don't subscribe to the theology. Can someone cite for me similar teachings that predate or are contemporaneous?

If you search for resurrecting gods who died for people, you might find Hitchen's list of about 6.

Regards
DL

Hitchen who? Christopher Hitchens? Or some actual historian?

And who are these examples of gods who died for people and were then resurrected (according to their respective stories)?

(August 10, 2020 at 8:43 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(August 10, 2020 at 7:53 am)Greatest I am Wrote: If you search for resurrecting gods who died for people, you might find Hitchen's list of about 6.

Regards
DL

Hitchen who? Christopher Hitchens? Or some actual historian?

And who are these examples of gods who died for people and were then resurrected (according to their respective stories)?

You think historians bother with religions, other than from a historic POV.

I doubt it. 

Now I do know of biblical historians, and the intelligent ones know that religions and their mostly vile gods are all man made. They know that the history of the bible has no relation to the history of the Middle East.

Since you do not seem to know much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp9XIh-BPio

Regards
DL

(August 11, 2020 at 4:44 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:

(August 10, 2020 at 8:43 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Hitchen who? Christopher Hitchens? Or some actual historian?

And who are these examples of gods who died for people and were then resurrected (according to their respective stories)?

You think historians bother with religions, other than from a historic POV.

Well, exactly. So we should go with what actual historians says rather than what a journalist says regarding this history of these matters.

Quote:Now I do know of biblical historians, and the intelligent ones know that religions and their mostly vile gods are all man made. They know that the history of the bible has no relation to the history of the Middle East.

Unrelated to anything I said, so why did you feel the need to say this at all?

Quote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp9XIh-BPio

lol, sorry, but this is just wrong. Most, if not all, of the examples he listed of "virgin births" in other myths aren't actually virgin births at all: the god has sex with the maiden after all, lol. How about not blindly believing everything you read and watch when they confirm what you already believe? Do better research next time.

Besides, this video doesn't answer what I actually asked. Remember what you said in your previous post.

Quote:If you search for resurrecting gods who died for people, you might find Hitchen's list of about 6.

Please list those examples. Thanks.

A theist being obtuse, that’s original. *eyeroll*

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@Grandizer

It's not as though this hasn't been posted on the forum multiple times before over the years:

https://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chri...ate-jesus/