In our entire species history, it is absolutely true that humans went from thinking, "that can't be done" to "we did that". And for good or bad, yes, I am happy that I don't have to ride a horse and buggy and have internet rather than the Pony Express.

What I object to, are blanket assumptions of individuals, not success. Just  because someone does something, and moves up, does not mean anyone who doesn't do the same thing, or doesn't move up is worth less. Life is unfortunately about competition, but it is still a pyramid regardless. For every famous actor, sports star, business leader, politician, ect ect, there are far more many people who AT BEST, get to a point where they can pay their bills and save. Most humans will not be Jeff Bezos, Tom Brady, Jerry Seinfeld, Madonna.

Yes, human CAN do it. But what are we talking about when we argue this?  We are merely talking about possibility, not probability or likelihood. 

I see far more value, not in those who get on top, but value in everyone who those who get there, who support those who do end up on top. 

My point is that the top, no matter the industry or topic, need to accept they are the minority and are where they are because of all the shoulders they stood on who did not get there.

They Said It Couldn’t Be Done by Alfred Hawthorne Hill

They said that it could not be done, 
He said, "Just let me try."
They said, "Other men have tried and failed," 
He answered, "But not I."
They said, "It is impossible," 
He said, "There's no such word."
He closed his mind, he closed his heart... 
To everything he heard.

He said, "Within the heart of man,
There is a tiny seed.
It grows until it blossoms, 
It's called the will to succeed.
Its roots are strength, its stem is hope,
Its petals inspiration,
Its thorns protect its strong green leaves,
With grim determination.

"Its stamens are its skills
Which help to shape each plan,
For there's nothing in the universe 
Beyond the scope of man."
They thought that it could not be done, 
Some even said they knew it,
But he faced up to what could not be done... 


Boru

This looks like rationalization for staying in low paying, go nowhere jobs.

Not everyone has the intellect or the physical ability to be the best at things. Some people have natural talent and some also have the benefit of that talent being nurtured. There are also those who strive to do something and they do whatever it takes to do it.

Anyone can decide that "anyone can do it" doesn't include them and decide to stay put where they are.

The idea that encouraging someone to follow their dream and use their abilities can be dangerous is ridiculous. What's dangerous is not believing to the point where you don't try.

There are those who don't accept that their lot in life is to make pizza boxes though they went to college.

I can list several incidents where I was told I would fail but I didn't. I didn't because I was going to prove the naysayers wrong.

A little intestinal fortitude can go a long way.

(September 6, 2020 at 3:17 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: This looks like rationalization for staying in low paying, go nowhere jobs.

Not everyone has the intellect or the physical ability to be the best at things.  Some people have natural talent and some also have the benefit of that talent being nurtured.  There are also those who strive to do something and they do whatever it takes to do it.

Anyone can decide that "anyone can do it" doesn't include them and decide to stay put where they are.

The idea that encouraging someone to follow their dream and use their abilities can be dangerous is ridiculous.  What's dangerous is not believing to the point where you don't try.

There are those who don't accept that their lot in life is to make pizza boxes though they went to college.

I can list several incidents where I was told I would fail but I didn't.  I didn't because I was going to prove the naysayers wrong.

A little intestinal fortitude can go a long way.

BULLSHIT AND NO!

It is simply saying that most people DONT end up billionaires and millionaires.

If everyone were billionaires and millionaires all at the same time, who would do the work?

I am sick of this bullshit of falsely accusing those whom point out math as being "naysayers".

Did you not read my OP. YES is possible for people to move up, and humans would not have cell phones or landed on the moon if we didn't try. I am sick of the false accusation I am claiming nobody try.

I AM simply saying to those who do manage to get to the top, whom are the minority, don't shit on the people you stand on that got you there.

(September 6, 2020 at 3:25 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(September 6, 2020 at 3:17 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: This looks like rationalization for staying in low paying, go nowhere jobs.

Not everyone has the intellect or the physical ability to be the best at things.  Some people have natural talent and some also have the benefit of that talent being nurtured.  There are also those who strive to do something and they do whatever it takes to do it.

Anyone can decide that "anyone can do it" doesn't include them and decide to stay put where they are.

The idea that encouraging someone to follow their dream and use their abilities can be dangerous is ridiculous.  What's dangerous is not believing to the point where you don't try.

There are those who don't accept that their lot in life is to make pizza boxes though they went to college.

I can list several incidents where I was told I would fail but I didn't.  I didn't because I was going to prove the naysayers wrong.

A little intestinal fortitude can go a long way.

BULLSHIT AND NO!

It is simply saying that most people DONT end up billionaires and millionaires.

If everyone were billionaires and millionaires all at the same time, who would do the work?

I am sick of this bullshit of falsely accusing those whom point out math as being "naysayers".

Did you not read my OP. YES is possible for people to move up, and humans would not have cell phones or landed on the moon if we didn't try. I am sick of the false accusation I am claiming nobody try.

I AM simply saying to those who do manage to get to the top, whom are the minority, don't shit on the people you stand on that got you there.

Is being a millionaire or billionaire the only measure of success? So what if most people don’t end up rich? How much does that metric really matter?

I’m not really sure what you’re driving at here.

Boru

You can be president of America is "technically" true, for example when meeting constitutional requirements, sure. There was time in American history nobody thought a Catholic would become president, but we had JFK. There was especially a time in American history when nobody thought a black man would be President, but OBAMA twice!

Still not the point, on any job, of any industry. It still remains that most people, if lucky, end up in jobs that they can pay their bills and save money for retirement. THAT is where most people IF LUCKY end up.

Don't falsely accuse me of saying, "Aim low". I fucking hate that shit. I am saying no matter where someone ends up in class, all classes make a pluralistic society work. There is a trash collector in Beverly Hills. There is a Janitor at the Ritz Carlton. There is a migrant farm worker that harvests your fruits and grains. There is a road worker who fills in potholes. There is a wait staff who serves you food and puts up with your fucking bullshit when you shit on them for your own impatience.

NOBODY is begrudging success. All I am arguing is take into account those who support those who do succeed.

Do what you love. "Success" is often improperly applied, as I'm convinced that as long as you do what you actually like doing (chores notwithstanding), then any "success" you achieve doing that is just an added bonus.

And it wouldn't hurt if that which you love doing somehow adds value to yourself and your surroundings.

(September 6, 2020 at 3:38 pm)Brian37 Wrote: You can be president of America is "technically" true, for example when meeting constitutional requirements, sure.  There was  time in  American history nobody thought a Catholic would become president, but we had JFK. There was especially a time in American history when nobody thought a black man would be President, but OBAMA twice!

Still not the point, on any job, of any industry. It still remains that most people, if lucky, end up in jobs that they can pay their bills and save money for retirement. THAT is where most people IF LUCKY end up.

Don't falsely accuse me of saying, "Aim low". I fucking hate that shit. I am saying no matter where someone ends up in class, all classes make a pluralistic society work. There is a trash collector in Beverly Hills. There is a Janitor at the Ritz Carlton. There is a migrant farm worker that harvests your fruits and grains. There is a road worker who fills in potholes. There is a wait staff who serves you food and puts up with your fucking bullshit when you shit on them for your own impatience.

NOBODY is begrudging success. All I am arguing is take into account those who support those who do succeed.

I haven’t accused you of anything. I asked you a few questions. There’s a difference.

I don’t live in Beverly Hills, and I’ve never been to the Ritz Carlton. We only buy locally sourced produce, so migrant workers aren’t involved (this is a pretty difficult to migrate to just to pick fruit). I’m always - ALWAYS - polite to the wait staff.

You need to calm down.

Boru

(September 6, 2020 at 3:25 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(September 6, 2020 at 3:17 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: This looks like rationalization for staying in low paying, go nowhere jobs.

Not everyone has the intellect or the physical ability to be the best at things.  Some people have natural talent and some also have the benefit of that talent being nurtured.  There are also those who strive to do something and they do whatever it takes to do it.

Anyone can decide that "anyone can do it" doesn't include them and decide to stay put where they are.

The idea that encouraging someone to follow their dream and use their abilities can be dangerous is ridiculous.  What's dangerous is not believing to the point where you don't try.

There are those who don't accept that their lot in life is to make pizza boxes though they went to college.

I can list several incidents where I was told I would fail but I didn't.  I didn't because I was going to prove the naysayers wrong.

A little intestinal fortitude can go a long way.

BULLSHIT AND NO!

It is simply saying that most people DONT end up billionaires and millionaires.

If everyone were billionaires and millionaires all at the same time, who would do the work?

I am sick of this bullshit of falsely accusing those whom point out math as being "naysayers".

Did you not read my OP. YES is possible for people to move up, and humans would not have cell phones or landed on the moon if we didn't try. I am sick of the false accusation I am claiming nobody try.

I AM simply saying to those who do manage to get to the top, whom are the minority, don't shit on the people you stand on that got you there.

I have never had the goal of being rich.  Being a decent mother and keeping food on the table was my goal.  I surpassed that but am way short of being rich.

You did not say shit about shitting on people.  

Take your fucking meds you raving lunatic.  You might want to read your OP because is has nothing to do with what you posted here.

Whackjob.

I know you reached your goal of living off what your mother worked for and having empties rattling on your AC vents.  Good job - you are a success!

(September 6, 2020 at 3:41 pm)Sal Wrote: Do what you love. "Success" is often improperly applied, as I'm convinced that as long as you do what you actually like doing (chores notwithstanding), then any "success" you achieve doing that is just an added bonus.

And it wouldn't hurt if that which you love doing somehow adds value to yourself and your surroundings.

Certainly ideal, but for most, not a majority. It certainly IS what most people want, and nobody should discourage if they have the opportunity. And if you do what you love, and things pan out, good for you. 

My only argument is that most people WONT end up on top. Most people can try to do what they love, but most people also have bills to pay. And very few people get to the top. 

I find it far more important that humans see individuals as such, not wealth. If one wants to try to do something, they should try. But at the same time, it is wrong to lie to someone about odds. No different than a lottery ticket. It is true people do win the big jackpot, but most wont. What most people can do however, is work and save.